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[Claudia_T]

James,

Let's you try and put this verse in context for us, ok?


1Jn:3:15: Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


Jesus said the law hangs on these two points, love God, and love your neighbor. Jesus said dont be angry with your brother or you may as well have murdered him..

John says if you hate your brother (in other words if you dont love your brother) (keep the commandments) YOU DO NOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

Let's see you spin that one, James, show us how to put it into context?

Lets see, it would have to be:

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that a murderer HAS eternal life abiding in him.

 

[Brother Bob]

JJ; I suppose you don't know what I am talking about what is offensive for you have done it so much.
As far as not moving on in Grace I think that is your problem, you don't have to move on when you are saved you have Grace and it includes a lot of things such as keeping yourself unspotted from the world. You know, like sinning.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by billwald:

That being said, 9 out of the 10 words are repeated in the NT.

This is the argument for the "downsized word of God" 10 - downsized to-9.

#1. Please show where the 9 commandments (the downsized 9) as stated in Exodus 20 - are in fact repeated in full in the NT.

#2. IF you can do that "successfully" I will then show you where the 4th commandment is quoted in the NT!

Deal?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

And Brother Bob once again you dance around questions by avoiding them.

If I have offended you show me what was said that is offensive.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
James,

Let's you try and put this verse in context for us, ok?


1Jn:3:15: Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


Jesus said the law hangs on these two points, love God, and love your neighbor. Jesus said dont be angry with your brother or you may as well have murdered him..

John says if you hate your brother (in other words if you dont love your brother) (keep the commandments) YOU DO NOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

Let's see you spin that one, James, show us how to put it into context?

Lets see, it would have to be:

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that a murderer HAS eternal life abiding in him.

No need to twist...just read the context.

Context is Love God..
Love one another....

11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another .

12 Not as Cain , who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

13 Marvel not , my brethren, if the world hate you .

14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren . He that loveth not his brother abideth in death .

15Whosoever hateth his brother (just like Cain) is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16Hereby perceive we the love of God , because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

****************

Now notice this..for we will see the key coming up.

22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
*********************
AWWW there you go. we MUST keep His commandments.
well...yes..that is what it says. so what is His commandments?

Notice that the CONTEXT tells us...

23 And this is his commandment,
1) That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,
2) and love one another,
as he gave us commandment.
*****************

there you go. No twisting needed...just plain old context.

wait..there it more...check it out..


24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

And what are the commandments again. Is it the 10 words? Well is it?? humm not sure?
...lets look at verse 23 again.

23 And this is his commandment,
1) That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,
2) and love one another,
as he gave us commandment.

Is it not nice that we do not have to guess what the text says...its all there for us to read.

In Christ...James

 

[Claudia_T]

James


and so? why do you have such an aversion to the commandments then and call us legalists if you believe in keeping them?

Or are you one of those people who says we just need to have love but we can steal, kill, commit adultery, worship idols and break all the 10?


Because in my Bible it says it is the same thing... Paul said it and so did Jesus when He said the foundation of the Law is love God and love your neighbor.. on these two commandments HANG THE WHOLE LAW:

Romans 13:
8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended (SUMMARIZED) in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


Matthew 22:40
35: Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36: Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38: This is the first and great commandment.
39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets .


"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deuteronomy 6:4,5.

"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Leviticus 19:18.

Sound familiar? Jesus was merely quoting directly out of the old testament when He said Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Somehow it did matter to the Lord that a sinner keep the Law

And no one has said anything differently. You just keep trying to say they do.

Not matter how much you repeat it, it's still a lie.

Everyone here has said that it's important.

However, you are trying to apply it to spiritual salvation, which goes against what Scripture teaches.

 

[Jarthur001]

Claudia,

Let me state for the 3rd time on this tread alone what a legalists is.

It is not just one that keeps the LAW. You can be a legalists by not keeping the Law. A legalists is one that does what he does for he thinks it makes him holy. He then turns and points to others and says...DO AS I, AND YOU WILL BE JUST AS HOLY AS I.

You see, if we keep the law for the wrong reasons we will have pride. We are to do them in LOVE just as 1 John says. NOT TO BE HOLY.

We looked at 1 John before..lets look at chapter one.

Chapter 1..
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

****************

Notice .........
verse 6..IF we say we have followship..
Ok..this is clear that this is addressing the believer.

6 IF we say we have followship..and walk in darkness. YOU LIE!!


Now look at verse 8..
If we say we have no sin…THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US!!
Again..this is to the believer..right? What is a sin? A sin is a transgression of the Law of God. Right?

Verse 9..If we confess our sins…
Notice this…in order to confess our sins…means we SIN. I know yo do not say we can not sin. Stick with me..the point is coming next.

What we have up to this point is a believer SINNING. right?
ok..now comes the good part..

Notice also…the end of verse 9…our unrighteousness is CLEANSED. Now…if we are now clean..this makes us righteousness. Notice this cleaning did not come from our good deeds but from Gods CLEANSING. NOW THAT IS WHAT I"M TALKING ABOUT...((high 5)))

10….If we say we have no sin…YOU LIE!!!
Again..this is to believers. Believers sin too.

Notice also in verse 10…
If we say we have no sin…we are saying we have righteousness already..and we are trusting in OUR WORKS..and..His word is not in us. Now..this clearly shows we are not to trust in good works but Gods cleaning power.

Now..what do you trust in?

************

Chapter 2..
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
**********************

Notice verse 1..”My little children”…again this letter is address those in the Church..the believers.

Notice in 1..IF…meaning when…when we sin..we have a advocate. Yes we all sin. We break Gods Law.

Notice also in 1..when we sin..where does our righteousness come from? Jesus Christ….NOT our good deeds. (((HIGH 5)))

*************

you asked..
"and so? why do you have such an aversion to the commandments then and call us legalists if you believe in keeping them?

I called no one a legalist. I told you what one was. If you say you fit the bill...then it is YOU calling yourself a legalist.

You posted..
"8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended (SUMMARIZED) in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
******************
I have never said to any one at any time we shold not keep the Law. Again..it is the REASON why we keep it that makes it wrong or right. If you think this is your ticket to heaven..you got the wrong ticket. If you keep the Law because you LOVE GOD..now thats the ticket

(((high 5)))

you said..
""Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deuteronomy 6:4,5. "

Ok you get a (((high 5))) for this one. This is WHY we do His will. We worship Him..We love Him. Not because we want to find favor with God.

In Christ...James

 

[Claudia_T]

Now you are giving me "Good Kitty" points?

 

[Brother Bob]

James; Are you saying you keep the Law but you don't have to. It is hard to understand you or at least for me so help me out if you would.

Ecclesiastes
"13": Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

"14": For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be
good, or whether it be evil.

1. Are you saying that sinners can't keep them.

2. And righteous don't have to keep them.

Then who in the world does have to keep them for it is the whole duty of man.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
James; Are you saying you keep the Law but you don't have to. It is hard to understand you or at least for me so help me out if you would.

Ecclesiastes
"13": Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

"14": For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be
good, or whether it be evil.

1. Are you saying that sinners can't keep them.

2. And righteous don't have to keep them.

Then who in the world does have to keep them for it is the whole duty of man.

Hello Bob,

This is fair to ask. It is very easy to see if you look real close.

********************
You asked...

"1. Are you saying that sinners can't keep them."

Well..no that is not what I said. With this i guess you mean should they not try to keep them.

What I have said many times is this:
To keep the Law..does not bring the sinner righteousness. You can keep the Law to the T and go to hell. Salvation is by faith in God, not in works.

But you raise a good point Bob. Can anyone really keep them?
************

remember james 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
************

and....remember this too from 1 John.
"8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
*************

So now we have set two things..
1) (James)if you lie you are just as guilty in LAW as if you murder. Not just murder...but all the law
2) (1 John) We all sin.

So it is clear that sinners can not keep the Law. But..nor can we.

So..what is meant by this?
"Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

Well what is the 2 commandments that hang all the law?

1) Love God with ALL your heart, soul and mind.
2) Love others.

If we Love the Lord with all ...I mean ALL our hearts. If we worship God..and His Word fills our mind. If we LOVE GOD WITH ALL OUR SOUL. What will happen? We will have a reaction to this love in a outward way, and that love will show in our action. The OT LAW says we MUST. NT Love says we want to follow.

****************

You then ask...

2. And righteous don't have to keep them.

Again..I have NEVER said this. Its the reason you keep the law which makes it right or wrong. If you trust in your works for righteousness you are not trusting in the cleaning power of the Blood. Our works do not clean us..Christ does this. Yet..we keep the Law. WHY? because we love Him.

*********************

You then end by asking this...
"Then who in the world does have to keep them for it is the whole duty of man"

Its not who keeps the law...but rather why do you keep it. Why do YOU keep the law? If you trust in your works...your not "in Christ"..but rather.."in you".


In Christ..James

 

[Jarthur001]

SIDENOTE:

What is this really saying?

Matt 22
"37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind"
*******************

Think about it. This is the foremost commandment. How do we keep it?

THINK ABOUT IT.....this is to easy to miss.

Its not our works.. we have seen this

How do we keep the great commandment????

Any ideas?


In Christ..James

[ May 20, 2006, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: Jarthur001 ]

 

[Brother Bob]

James;What I have said many times is this:
To keep the Law..does not bring the sinner righteousness. You can keep the Law to the T and go to hell. Salvation is by faith in God, not in works.

Bbob: agree

James;So now we have set two things..
1) (James)if you lie you are just as guilty in LAW as if you murder. Not just murder...but all the law
2) (1 John) We all sin.

So it is clear that sinners can not keep the Law. But..nor can we.

BBob; Disagree, The young man must of kept them for if he didn't Jesus would of called him on it and there are others Scriptures where others have kept the law. Even Apostle Paul while he was a sinner.( so there is a sin that is not breaking the Law, Ten Commandments)

Now the saved; The righteous of the Law is fulfilled in us and to do that we certainly could not be breaking them but we have the help of the Holy Spirit.

(here is what happens if we don't keep them)
Hebrews, chapter 6
4": For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

"5": And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

"6": If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


James; If we Love the Lord with all ...I mean ALL our hearts. If we worship God..and His Word fills our mind. If we LOVE GOD WITH ALL OUR SOUL. What will happen? We will have a reaction to this love in a outward way, and that love will show in our action. The OT LAW says we MUST. NT Love says we want to follow.

****************

You then ask...

2. And righteous don't have to keep them.

Again..I have NEVER said this. Its the reason you keep the law which makes it right or wrong. If you trust in your works for righteousness you are not trusting in the cleaning power of the Blood. Our works do not clean us..Christ does this. Yet..we keep the Law. WHY? because we love Him.

BBob; Agree for how could you love God and break his Commandments or how could you love your neighbor and lust against him, steal from him, covet his wife, etc. So on these two do hang the rest.

James;Its not who keeps the law...but rather why do you keep it. Why do YOU keep the law? If you trust in your works...your not "in Christ"..but rather.."in you".

BBob; Agree and I think the rest agree for none of us say we trust in our works but because of love we do keep the Commandments.

So, unless I misunderstand we agree on most James.

Blessings,
BBob

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Jarthur001:
SIDENOTE:

What is this really saying?

Matt 22
"37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind"
*******************

Think about it. This is the foremost commandment. How do we keep it?

THINK ABOUT IT.....this is to easy to miss.

Its not our works.. we have seen this

How do we keep the great commandment????

Any ideas?


In Christ..James

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me

 

[billwald]

#1. Please show where the 9 commandments (the downsized 9) as stated in Exodus 20 - are in fact repeated in full in the NT.


Don't have time to dig out the exact citations but anyoneone who is familiar with the NT shouldn't have any trouble with finding the concept of the nine.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
[
Now the saved; The righteous of the Law is fulfilled in us and to do that we certainly could not be breaking them but we have the help of the Holy Spirit.

(here is what happens if we don't keep them)
Hebrews, chapter 6
4": For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

"5": And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

"6": If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hello Bob,

We do agree on many things. At 1st we cross each other by using different words. So before this happens again, let me ask you on this passage in heb 6 ....what do you think this is saying?

1)..we lose our salvation when we sin.
2)..we never had our salvation so we sin.
3)..other

I will tell you right now I break from Calvin on this one. I say it is "other". Calvin says that "tasted" does not mean they HAD the Holy Spirit. I can give you 10 verses showing that tasteing means you have trusted and thereby have the Holy Spirit. Yet I do not hold to losing your salvation. The key..in my view...is to look at the end of chapter 5..and the middle of chapter 6. This text you posted falls between this...the the text before and after tells the story.

More on this later...but what is your view?


In Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

James; I feel by all the other Scriptures that we are kept by the power of God. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Jesus's blood not wasted, that I think the Scripture is saying how impossible it is to lose your Salvation and always have believed that. I have discussed it with other brethren who believe the same thing, but it is also saying if a person did do such a thing as did Judas, then they surely lost for ever. I know Judas was a devil from the beginning but I have wondered what beginning. Was he always a devil? Time and chance has happened to all and I know you are Calvinist so you not going to accept that one but I say if a person does fall he is gone for sure seeing he hath put God to an open shame. Your thoughts?

Blessings,
BBob

 

[nate]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
SIN by Bible definition, is TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW... What Law? THE TEN COMMANDMENTS! of course.

I was just wondering if you would share the Scripture which explicitly tells us "The Law" is only the ten commandments and not also circumcision and everything else in Leviticus.

 

[Brother Bob]

It is just when Jesus talked about the Law and Apostle Paul talked about the Law it was obvious by their statements it was the ten Commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

Every time the "LAW" is mentioned and then "QUOTED as an example" (Romans 7 and James 2 for example) it is a quote of the TEN Commandments.

HOWEVER -- that does not mean that "Scripture is abolished EXCEPT for the Ten Commandments" as many had hoped.

In Christ,

Bob