The explanation of Catholic Beliefs

[MB]

12 Strings;
You posted.
RCC believes in:
-Deity of Jesus Christ;
Yes they make this claim; but they worship His mother more than Him
-Virgin Birth; they make this claim; but they also believe that she continued as a virgin for eternity even though she had other children like James.
-God the Creator; Yes they make this claim; but they have many gods they place before Him and they kneel to actual Idles and pray.
-the Trinity; Actually they make this claim but there's is actually a quadrinity because they pray to Mary more then God as a co- redeemer.
-immorality of abortion. Yes they make this claim but there hospitals use the term of "fetus" to prove an unborn child is not human while trying to beat a law suit over a negligent death of a child.
-The Literal Life, death, & Resurrection of Jesus. Yes they make this claim but they worship Mary more than Christ.
-Literal Heaven & Hell;
yes they make this claim but they do not believe men will go to hell. They believe that all will be saved eventually. It is after all called universalism.
-The value in confessing sins to one another (if distorted) Distored according to scripture.
-And many other things you would agree with.
Really? I have not agreed to even one that you have mentioned. They have taken God's word and distorted it's meaning. They appoint a Pope and claim he is infallible. They call him holy father
They claim there Eucharist is Salvific and that it is the actual flesh and blood of Christ.
They claim there is no Salvation apart from the church. Shall I go on?

There over a billion souls involved in this heritical church and all of those poor people have been deceived.

So you're saying the history of the anabaptist coming out of Zwingli's Church is not accurate, or simply that other groups (hussites, for example) held similar beliefs before the anabaptist name came along?

The hussites were the Anabaptist before they were Anabaptist. Anabaptist disagreed with Zwingly the idea they came out of His church is controversal and not necessarily proven to be true.
I'm saying that the catholic church has claimed many lies are true and I do not believe anything they say.
You placed all these beliefs on the board to challenge me but you failed to define how they believe what they claimed. Making a claim is easy it's quite another to prove it's according to scripture.
Satan has always used scripture by distorting it and obviously you must believe they are scriptural other wise you would not be defending them.
I guess your sympathy for the Catholic doctrine could be a red flag that you desire to be united with them again. Are you ecumenical?
MB

 

[12strings]

12 Strings;
You posted.
RCC believes in:
-Deity of Jesus Christ;
Yes they make this claim; but they worship His mother more than Him
-Virgin Birth; they make this claim; but they also believe that she continued as a virgin for eternity even though she had other children like James.
-God the Creator; Yes they make this claim; but they have many gods they place before Him and they kneel to actual Idles and pray.
-the Trinity; Actually they make this claim but there's is actually a quadrinity because they pray to Mary more then God as a co- redeemer.
-immorality of abortion. Yes they make this claim but there hospitals use the term of "fetus" to prove an unborn child is not human while trying to beat a law suit over a negligent death of a child.
-The Literal Life, death, & Resurrection of Jesus. Yes they make this claim but they worship Mary more than Christ.
-Literal Heaven & Hell;
yes they make this claim but they do not believe men will go to hell. They believe that all will be saved eventually. It is after all called universalism.
-The value in confessing sins to one another (if distorted) Distored according to scripture.
-And many other things you would agree with.
Really? I have not agreed to even one that you have mentioned. They have taken God's word and distorted it's meaning. They appoint a Pope and claim he is infallible. They call him holy father
They claim there Eucharist is Salvific and that it is the actual flesh and blood of Christ.
They claim there is no Salvation apart from the church. Shall I go on?

You are describing their wrong beliefs that they ADD, in order to say they don't actually believe the true things that they actually believe. You may have some points on some of these, but even you must admit that Roman Catholics believe in the Deity of Christ, and the virgin birth. You can't say they don't, no matter what other wrong beliefs they have. Therefore you cannot seriously say:

I do not believe the RCC was ever right about anything.

MOVING ON...

There over a billion souls involved in this heretical church and all of those poor people have been deceived.

In one sense, you are correct, but in another sense, the blame does not fall only on the catholic leaders, but on the parishoners as well: 2 Tim. 3:1-5.
Says people who will not hear the truth accumulate for themselves teachers to tickle their ears. Followers of the Pope and followers of Joel Osteen are not innocent decieved sheep, but have willingly followed false teaching.

The hussites were the Anabaptist before they were Anabaptist. Anabaptist disagreed with Zwingly the idea they came out of His church is controversal and not necessarily proven to be true.
I'm saying that the catholic church has claimed many lies are true and I do not believe anything they say.

I'm not sure I'm following you here...are you saying that the histories (secular, protestant, anabaptist, and others) that chronicle the reformation, including the radical reformation of the anabaptists, is actually secretly put out by the catholic church for some reason? Such that any history that shows a true church breaking away from the catholic church due to their wanting to be more faithful to the Bible, is actually a lie of the catholic church? I'm really having a hard time figuring out why you seem to be saying that the history of the protestant reformation is just "catholic lies."

You placed all these beliefs on the board to challenge me but you failed to define how they believe what they claimed. Making a claim is easy it's quite another to prove it's according to scripture.
Satan has always used scripture by distorting it and obviously you must believe they are scriptural other wise you would not be defending them.
MB

I do believe the Diety of Christ and the virgin birth, the trinity, and these others are scriptural. I'm simply saying catholics believe these as well...just as they believe that dogs have 4 legs, and the sun is hot...if a catholic says the sun is hot, he's still right...even though he's a catholic. If a catholic says Jesus is God, he's still right...even though he's a catholic.

I guess your sympathy for the Catholic doctrine could be a red flag that you desire to be united with them again. Are you ecumenical?

1. No, I simply recognize when certain Groups are right about SOME things, and wrong about others. A Presbyterian who baptizes babies can still be right about his view of innerrancy. A Mormon who believes in 7 levels of heaven can still be right about abortion being murder. A Catholic who prays to Mary can still be right when he says Jesus is God. An atheist who denies God's existence can still be right when he says that Charles Barkley has gotten fat.

2. Going Back to the Anabaptist thing...I personally don't see the need to find an unbroken trail of baptistic churches to feel that I am in the right...I believe God's word is powerful enough that it doesn't even need and established church for it to work, so...
-If a remote pagan tribe finds a bible they can understand, starts to read it, many become christians and start a "baptistic" Church, then great!
-If a Catholic Monk begins really reading the Bible, discovers catholic errors and decides to try to fix them, and if he can't fix them, leave and start a more faithful church, great!
-If a group of men studying the bible decide that Zwingli's stance on baptism is wrong and insist on believer's baptism, then great!
...In none of these situations should these people's Validity as true churches be questions SOLELY on the pedigree of their forefathers...but on their fidelity to scripture. If a group of Muslums finds a Bible and begins a Christian Church in the middle of Yemen, We would not accuse them of simply being "closet muslims," and not true Christians.

(sorry for the long post...I have enjoyed our recent banter). :applause:

 

[Alive in Christ]

MB...

I agree with ALLof your points in your OP. Allof the contradictions you brought to light are accurate.

I am an ex Catholic. I cant be fooled

Hang in there. You are in the right.

 

[12strings]

MB...

I agree with ALLof your points in your OP. Allof the contradictions you brought to light are accurate.

I am an ex Catholic. I cant be fooled

Hang in there. You are in the right.

I agree that MB is Basically correct in his description of Catholic Beliefs. I simply disagree that since they pray to mary, it means they don't believe Jesus died and rose again. They don't just "Claim" to believe it, they actually do. The wrong beliefs do not negate the fact that they are right about some things.

 

[MB]

You are describing their wrong beliefs that they ADD, in order to say they don't actually believe the true things that they actually believe. You may have some points on some of these, but even you must admit that Roman Catholics believe in the Deity of Christ, and the virgin birth. You can't say they don't, no matter what other wrong beliefs they have. Therefore you cannot seriously say:



MOVING ON...



In one sense, you are correct, but in another sense, the blame does not fall only on the catholic leaders, but on the parishoners as well: 2 Tim. 3:1-5.
Says people who will not hear the truth accumulate for themselves teachers to tickle their ears. Followers of the Pope and followers of Joel Osteen are not innocent decieved sheep, but have willingly followed false teaching.



I'm not sure I'm following you here...are you saying that the histories (secular, protestant, anabaptist, and others) that chronicle the reformation, including the radical reformation of the anabaptists, is actually secretly put out by the catholic church for some reason? Such that any history that shows a true church breaking away from the catholic church due to their wanting to be more faithful to the Bible, is actually a lie of the catholic church? I'm really having a hard time figuring out why you seem to be saying that the history of the protestant reformation is just "catholic lies."

The proof the Catholic church does such things are the record of history. Secular history states that they were established in 325 AD although after this was in encyclopedias originally it is no longer. At the request of the RCC as being inaccurate according to there records.
According to secular history the idea the Anabaptist came out of Zwingli's church is controversial at best. Zwingli disagreed with Anabaptist over baptism and apparently didn't have much to do with each other. Your claim the Anabaptist came out of Zwingli's church I don't believe is true. Who's lie this is I have no idea. Yet I do believe it to be a lie

I do believe the Diety of Christ and the virgin birth, the trinity, and these others are scriptural. I'm simply saying catholics believe these as well...just as they believe that dogs have 4 legs, and the sun is hot...if a catholic says the sun is hot, he's still right...even though he's a catholic. If a catholic says Jesus is God, he's still right...even though he's a catholic.



1. No, I simply recognize when certain Groups are right about SOME things, and wrong about others. A Presbyterian who baptizes babies can still be right about his view of innerrancy. A Mormon who believes in 7 levels of heaven can still be right about abortion being murder. A Catholic who prays to Mary can still be right when he says Jesus is God. An atheist who denies God's existence can still be right when he says that Charles Barkley has gotten fat.
Yet believing only 25 % of the truth does not make Christians. Especially when there definitions of all those things you claim make them Christian
2. Going Back to the Anabaptist thing...I personally don't see the need to find an unbroken trail of baptistic churches to feel that I am in the right...I believe God's word is powerful enough that it doesn't even need and established church for it to work, so...
-If a remote pagan tribe finds a bible they can understand, starts to read it, many become christians and start a "baptistic" Church, then great!
-If a Catholic Monk begins really reading the Bible, discovers catholic errors and decides to try to fix them, and if he can't fix them, leave and start a more faithful church, great!
-If a group of men studying the bible decide that Zwingli's stance on baptism is wrong and insist on believer's baptism, then great!
...In none of these situations should these people's Validity as true churches be questions SOLELY on the pedigree of their forefathers...but on their fidelity to scripture. If a group of Muslums finds a Bible and begins a Christian Church in the middle of Yemen, We would not accuse them of simply being "closet muslims," and not true Christians.

(sorry for the long post...I have enjoyed our recent banter). :applause:

Your making me Laugh over our extremes here. Yes men can believe in tid bits of truth. but like in a trial the only truth that works is the whole truth. If we take the truth and redefine it to mean something else altogether the truth for them has become a lie because of there definition. I had the experience of asking a group of Catholics once, if they were Christian. They all said no that they were Catholics. They were proud of it.
MB

 

[MB]

MB...

I agree with ALLof your points in your OP. Allof the contradictions you brought to light are accurate.

I am an ex Catholic. I cant be fooled

Hang in there. You are in the right.

Thankyou for your support.
MB

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why haven't you taken this criticism commentary to a place where Catholics can respond to you...seems only fair that they be given the opportunity to defend themselves.

 

[quantumfaith]

MB...

I agree with ALLof your points in your OP. Allof the contradictions you brought to light are accurate.

I am an ex Catholic. I cant be fooled

Hang in there. You are in the right.

I too have many catholic friends, and NO they do not worship Mary over Christ. Yes they do hold Mary in high regard, they do not worship her.

Now we’re getting down to the reason why Protestants think Catholics worship Mary. They think worship and prayer are the same thing. Therefore, if you are praying to Mary you must be worshipping Mary.
Well, the Catholic faith has been around for a long time, and believe it or not, these questions have been asked before, and the Catholics have the answer. It goes like this: there are three categories of respect due in the realm of worship. They go by specific names: Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia. Latria is worship. It is the worship that is due only to God. This worship consists of offering God our lives, our souls, our minds and our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans. 12. 1-2) We do this pre-eminently through the sacrifice of the Mass.
Dulia is not worship. It is honor. We honor anyone who is eminent and accomplished. We honor them for their brains, their discipline, their wit, their achievement. We honor our parents and grandparents because we owe them that. We honor our loved ones. Part of this honor is that we ask them for things. We come to them with our needs. We look up to them. We respect them. They are our role models and mentors. We have a relationship to them of subservient honor. They are awesome to us. Dulia is also what we give to the saints and angels. We give them the honor that is due to them. As part of this we have a relationship with them. We ask them for things. This is called “praying to the saints.”

Hyperdulia is the honor we give to the Virgin Mary. We give her the highest honor because she is unique amongst all God’s creation. She is higher than the cherubim and seraphim. She is the only created being who was honored by God so greatly that his son took his flesh from her. She has totally unique place of honor in heaven and therefore also amongst all of God’s people on earth. The honor we give her, therefore, and the dulia we give her is higher than any other being. But it is not latria. We’re clear about that. We do not worship Mary. The sign of this is that we do not make sacrifice to her. You don’t find any Catholic priest offering a Mass to Mary. No. The sacrifice of the Mass is offered to God the Almighty Father.

 

[MB]

Why haven't you taken this criticism commentary to a place where Catholics can respond to you...seems only fair that they be given the opportunity to defend themselves.

I have many times
MB

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I would like to hear they're responses.

 

[Baptist4life]

Frankly I'm amazed, and deeply saddened, to find the Roman Catholic church being defended on a Baptist forum!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Frankly I'm amazed, and deeply saddened, to find the Roman Catholic church being defended on a Baptist forum!

Whom do you suggest is defending it?

 

[quantumfaith]

Whom do you suggest is defending it?

He can't, because it isn't.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Quantom faith.....

I am sorry but all of that "latrea-hyperdulia" buisness is nothing but a failed atempt at fooling people.

Its nonsense. They figure that everyone will fall for it, and I guess some do

But it is pure trickery.

The catholic church CLEARLY worship Mary.

It is indesputable.

 

[Baptist4life]

I too have many catholic friends, and NO they do not worship Mary over Christ. Yes they do hold Mary in high regard, they do not worship her.

Now we’re getting down to the reason why Protestants think Catholics worship Mary. They think worship and prayer are the same thing. Therefore, if you are praying to Mary you must be worshipping Mary.
Well, the Catholic faith has been around for a long time, and believe it or not, these questions have been asked before, and the Catholics have the answer. It goes like this: there are three categories of respect due in the realm of worship. They go by specific names: Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia. Latria is worship. It is the worship that is due only to God. This worship consists of offering God our lives, our souls, our minds and our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans. 12. 1-2) We do this pre-eminently through the sacrifice of the Mass.
Dulia is not worship. It is honor. We honor anyone who is eminent and accomplished. We honor them for their brains, their discipline, their wit, their achievement. We honor our parents and grandparents because we owe them that. We honor our loved ones. Part of this honor is that we ask them for things. We come to them with our needs. We look up to them. We respect them. They are our role models and mentors. We have a relationship to them of subservient honor. They are awesome to us. Dulia is also what we give to the saints and angels. We give them the honor that is due to them. As part of this we have a relationship with them. We ask them for things. This is called “praying to the saints.”

Hyperdulia is the honor we give to the Virgin Mary. We give her the highest honor because she is unique amongst all God’s creation. She is higher than the cherubim and seraphim. She is the only created being who was honored by God so greatly that his son took his flesh from her. She has totally unique place of honor in heaven and therefore also amongst all of God’s people on earth. The honor we give her, therefore, and the dulia we give her is higher than any other being. But it is not latria. We’re clear about that. We do not worship Mary. The sign of this is that we do not make sacrifice to her. You don’t find any Catholic priest offering a Mass to Mary. No. The sacrifice of the Mass is offered to God the Almighty Father.

You are defending it with the above post!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You are defending it with the above post!

I dont believe Quantum is trying to be anything other than fair & balanced in his portrait of the Roman Catholic Belief. I personally believe that I am as far removed from a RC as anyone can be however to be gracious, any review of the RC Belief System should have some representation from a knowledgeable Roman Catholic practitioner & you have not given them an opportunity to explain & defend themselves.......so how is QF's commentary offensive? At least open it up to all in order to allow them to explain themselves.

 

[Alive in Christ]

EWF...

Honestly, what has been posted here is pretty much all that a catholic apologist would offer.

 

[DHK]

They go by specific names: Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia. Latria is worship. It is the worship that is due only to God. This worship consists of offering God our lives, our souls, our minds and our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans. 12. 1-2) We do this pre-eminently through the sacrifice of the Mass.
Dulia is not worship. It is honor. We honor anyone who is eminent and accomplished. We honor them for their brains, their discipline, their wit, their achievement. We honor our parents and grandparents because we owe them that. We honor our loved ones. Part of this honor is that we ask them for things. We come to them with our needs. We look up to them. We respect them. They are our role models and mentors. We have a relationship to them of subservient honor. They are awesome to us. Dulia is also what we give to the saints and angels. We give them the honor that is due to them. As part of this we have a relationship with them. We ask them for things. This is called “praying to the saints.”

Hyperdulia is the honor we give to the Virgin Mary. We give her the highest honor because she is unique amongst all God’s creation. She is higher than the cherubim and seraphim. She is the only created being who was honored by God so greatly that his son took his flesh from her. She has totally unique place of honor in heaven and therefore also amongst all of God’s people on earth.

That is their story line, but it is not Biblical, and one who believes the Bible cannot defend it.

Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

In the words of Jesus himself, Only God is to be worshiped. Examples of that worship are given in the Book of Revelation.

Catholics put a false dichotomy between latria and dulia. All latria is worship. All dulia is worship. What is prayer? Prayer is worship. Prayer is not simple "honor" or "respect." It is worship. Just as (hopefully) you would not bow down to any of the posters here, or any of your relatives, and pray TO them, you ought not to pray to any saint or Mary (dulia and hyper dulia), for that is worship.

That is what the angel sharply rebuked John for:
Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

As the angel said: God alone is to be worshiped.
John would have committed "Dulia." The RCC would deny this, but it fits their definition. It is honor and respect despite the word worship. Worship is what the Bible correctly calls it. Perhaps John was just giving great honor to the angel, being overcome with awe at everything around him. Remember that Mordecai would not even bow down to Haman for Mordecai was a Jew, and would only bow down to the Lord God Jehovah.

Prayer is worship. By their prayers to Mary and the saints they are worshiping them, and they make Mary another god. Worship belongs only to God. To redefine "worship" by using different terms is simply deceitful and a way to bypass the Ten Commandments which explicitly says: "Thou shalt not commit idolatry."

 

[MB]

I too have many catholic friends, and NO they do not worship Mary over Christ. Yes they do hold Mary in high regard, they do not worship her.

Now we’re getting down to the reason why Protestants think Catholics worship Mary. They think worship and prayer are the same thing.

You sound very Catholic to me if you believe prayer is anything but worship and the highest form of it.

Therefore, if you are praying to Mary you must be worshipping Mary.
Well, the Catholic faith has been around for a long time, and believe it or not, these questions have been asked before, and the Catholics have the answer. It goes like this: there are three categories of respect due in the realm of worship. They go by specific names: Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia. Latria is worship. It is the worship that is due only to God. This worship consists of offering God our lives, our souls, our minds and our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans. 12. 1-2) We do this pre-eminently through the sacrifice of the Mass.

Your scaring me old buddy. This comes right out of some Catholic Catechism.
You sure your not Catholic? You do know being friends with a lot of them means you have something in common. What could that be?

Dulia is not worship. It is honor. We honor anyone who is eminent and accomplished. We honor them for their brains, their discipline, their wit, their achievement. We honor our parents and grandparents because we owe them that. We honor our loved ones. Part of this honor is that we ask them for things. We come to them with our needs. We look up to them.

Well excuse me but I believe to summon the dead for what ever. Is called necromancy. It's about as Witch like as one can get.

We respect them. They are our role models and mentors. We have a relationship to them of subservient honor. They are awesome to us. Dulia is also what we give to the saints and angels. We give them the honor that is due to them. As part of this we have a relationship with them. We ask them for things. This is called “praying to the saints.”

There once was a witch who called up a dead man in the Bible. I do not think God was pleased

Hyperdulia is the honor we give to the Virgin Mary. We give her the highest honor because she is unique amongst all God’s creation. She is higher than the cherubim and seraphim. She is the only created being who was honored by God so greatly that his son took his flesh from her. She has totally unique place of honor in heaven and therefore also amongst all of God’s people on earth. The honor we give her, therefore, and the dulia we give her is higher than any other being.

I'm convinced this isn't even close to scripture. Therefore it's a false doctrine. Mary was a sinner like the rest of us her father was Adam.

But it is not latria. We’re clear about that. We do not worship Mary. The sign of this is that we do not make sacrifice to her. You don’t find any Catholic priest offering a Mass to Mary. No. The sacrifice of the Mass is offered to God the Almighty Father.

If all this is true then why are there three times as many shrines devoted to her than for Jesus.
What about her being a co redeemer? They pray and ask her to ask Jesus. How sad.
MB

 

[MB]

Frankly I'm amazed, and deeply saddened, to find the Roman Catholic church being defended on a Baptist forum!

That makes several of us.
MB