The "FIRST resurrection" - THE Focus of the NT saints?

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
I don't see where the souls were resurrected either? How can "souls" be resurrected?

I do see where the rest of the dead were resurrected after the 1000 years and "this was the First resurrection".


"The souls CAME TO LIFE" and "THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION" are both found there - how can you possibly ignore it??

Says the souls "lived and reigned with Christ".

Souls of the saints are not dead and have been alive since they were made alive in Christ Jesus.

You would have to believe the souls of the saints were "dead" before this took place!!

Lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years does not mean they came alive, it just means the reigned with Christ and Lived with Him. IMO

 

[BobRyan]

Says the souls "lived and reigned with Christ".

Souls of the saints are not dead and have been alive since they were made alive in Christ Jesus.

You would have to believe the souls of the saints were "dead" before this took place!!

Lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years does not mean they came alive, it just means the reigned with Christ and Lived with Him. IMO

I understand why your view needs this text not to say "they came to life" or "they lived again" when it speaks of souls.

But the text is clear on that point contrary to what your POV would need in this case.

“Came to Life”

Rev 20:4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 20:4 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
4 I saw thrones, and sitting on those thrones were the ones who had been given the right to judge. I also saw the souls of the people who had their heads cut off because they had told about Jesus and preached God's message. They were the same ones who had not worshiped the beast or the idol, and they had refused to let its mark be put on their hands or foreheads. They will come to life and rule with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 20:4 New International Version (NIV)
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years

Rev 20:4 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
The Saints Reign with the Messiah

4 Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. also [saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.

Rev 20:4 Amplified Bible (AMP)
4Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom authority to act as judges and to pass sentence was entrusted. Also I saw the souls of those who had been slain with axes [beheaded] for their witnessing to Jesus and [for preaching and testifying] for the Word of God, and who had refused to pay homage to the beast or his statue and had not accepted his mark or permitted it to be stamped on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived again and ruled with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years.


Jamieson Fausset and Brown argue that Rev 20:4 is clearly “Bodily resurrection”

Rev 20:4

souls--This term is made a plea for denying the literality of the first resurrection, as if the resurrection were the spiritual one of the souls of believers in this life; the life and reign being that of the soul raised in this life from the death of sin by vivifying faith.

But "souls" expresses their disembodied state (compare Revelation 6:9) as John saw them at first; "and they lived" implies their coming to life in the body again, so as to be visible, as the phrase, Revelation 20:5, "this is the first resurrection," proves; for as surely as "the rest of the dead lived not (again) until," &c. refers to the bodily general resurrection, so must the first resurrection refer to the body. This also accords with 1 Corinthians 15:23, "They that are Christ's at His coming."

Jamieson Fausset Brown on Rev 20:4
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/JamiesonFaussetBrown/jfb.cgi?book=re&chapter=020

 

[BobRyan]

In cases where a translator does try to avoid the meaning or sense of "lived again" and "Came To Life" the fact that "THIS is the First Resurrection" and "thie REST of the dead did not COME TO LIFE" remains and shows that the effort they made regarding that phrasing for the FIRST resurrection "they came to life" did not avail their argument of any good at all since it STILL becomes very clear to the reader "the REST of the dead did not COME TO LIFE" until after the 1000 years were completed.

The other thing that is a huge red flag for anyone going down that road is that the spin of Rev 20:4 for a "NON Resurrection" would have to be quite different from the existing text.

We would have to take this text


Rev 20 (NASB)
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, [b] and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark[/b] on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

And turn it into something like this --




Rev 20 (NO-SB)
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, [b] and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark[/b] on their forehead and on their hand; and although they simply continued to live as before they now started to reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 However those who were actuallyl dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. Then will take place the ONLY resurrection I saw in the future.[/b]

 

[Brother Bob]

In cases where a translator does try to avoid the meaning or sense of "lived again" and "Came To Life" the fact that "THIS is the First Resurrection" and "thie REST of the dead did not COME TO LIFE" remains and shows that the effort they made regarding that phrasing for the FIRST resurrection "they came to life" did not avail their argument of any good at all since it STILL becomes very clear to the reader "the REST of the dead did not COME TO LIFE" until after the 1000 years were completed.

The other thing that is a huge red flag for anyone going down that road is that the spin of Rev 20:4 for a "NON Resurrection" would have to be quite different from the existing text.

We would have to take this text


Rev 20 (NASB)
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

And turn it into something like this --




Rev 20 (NO-SB)
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and although they simply continued to live as before they now started to reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 However those who were actuallyl dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. Then will take place the ONLY resurrection I saw in the future.

I like the KJV.

The bodies of those souls of them that were beheaded "were dead". The translators also had to add "of them" to show it was a part of a whole. IMO.

First you claim a thousand year reign of which there was a resurrection, if I understand you and then "the rest of the dead" which would have to be another resurrection, all the time using Christ as being a part of the First resurrection which He has already resurrected. Seems to be a whole lot of problems for this to work. IMO

Bob; I can see how it would work with the way you believe, about the soul going out of existance, until a resurrection. I don't see how it would fit, the others who believe that when you die, the soul is at rest with Jesus. For if the soul is at rest with Jesus, then it is alive and can not be resurrected.

 

[BobRyan]

I wonder what Greek word is being used for "body" in the KJV.

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[BobRyan]

Kai eidon [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva](5627) qronouv, kai ekaqisan [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva](5656)[/FONT] ep' autouv, kai krima edoqh [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva](5681)[/FONT] autoiv, kai tav yuxav twn pepelekismenwn [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva](5772)[/FONT] dia thn marturian Ihsou kai dia ton logon tou qeou, kai oitinev ou prosekunhsan [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva](5656)[/FONT] to qhrion oude thn eikona autou kai ouk elabon [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva](5627)[/FONT] to xaragma epi to metwpon kai epi thn xeira autwn; kai ezhsan [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva](5656)[/FONT] kai ebasileusan [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva](5656)[/FONT] meta tou Xristou xilia eth.[/FONT]

 

[Brother Bob]

I guess we take our pick.

Body

4983
swma
soma
so'-mah
from swzw - sozo 4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively:--bodily, body, slave.

Soul
4151
pneuma
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590.

 

[BobRyan]

SWMA - SOMA??

Maybe you can point it out in Vs 4.

kai
tav
yuxav
twn
pepelekismenwn

I have provided the text with hotlinks so you can check the answer.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

I have never claimed that bodies were in verse 4!!!

I have always said the scripture is talking about the souls OF THEM, that were beheaded.

And if souls are already "alive", then they can not be resurrected.

 

[Eliyahu]

How come one can be confused between Psuxe and pneuma?
Re 20:4 clearly talks about Psuxas ( ψυχασ ).

A valuable indication by Brother Bob is that we can find nowhere the events of the Resurrection before 20:11. Isn't the Resurrection of the Believers so great that everyone is anticipating?

If ALL the Believers are resurrected in the First Resurrection( Re 20:4-5), why is the Bible silent about it though it is so great event?

You can find the Resurrection only in 20:12-, why?
Why does the Bible keep silence about the Resurrection of the Christian believers?

If you think about the the realistic statistics, you can understand it.
I don't have any statistics, but God only has it, but for your understanding, if I illustrate it, the number of the whole people who lived on this earth may be around 200 Billion or more, then we read about 144,000 which I believe means the number of the Key believers who are assigned the Judgment of the Governing Body in the New Millennium. Then we notice the Martyrs who are beheaded for the witness of the Words of God, for Jesus Christ ( Re 20:4). Then another group of Believers who refused the idolatry during End Times refusing to follow the Beast.
Therefore these groups of the Believers who are mentioned in Re 20:4 are only about 0.01% of the Christian Believers which may be 0.0002% of the total souls who lived on this earth.

Their descending is mentioned in Re 19 which means that they may have been resurrected before that, before they show up on the Mount Zion
Those are bodily resurrected before they follow Jesus Christ on the white horse.

Most of the people are resurrected in Re 20:12, including rgw rest of the believers and unbelievers.

I already told you about Mt 20, Heb 11:35, 1 Cor 15:20-5, Re 20:4-5 and 12, etc. All things coincide each other if you think about the sequence as I indicated.

 

[BobRyan]

I like the KJV.

The bodies of those souls of them that were beheaded "were dead". The translators also had to add "of them" to show it was a part of a whole. IMO.

I thought this is where you were saying that the text should be rendered "bodies of the souls" in vs 4.. was I wrong?

First you claim a thousand year reign of which there was a resurrection, if I understand you and then "the rest of the dead" which would have to be another resurrection,

True I point to the second coming event of Rev 19-20 and say that AT this appearing of Christ we have the resurrection of the dead in Christ the blessed and holy -- those who are raised IN THAT FUTURE event of Christ's second coming -- which is in fact His appearing seen in Rev 19 and in 1Thess 4.

all the time using Christ as being a part of the First resurrection which He has already resurrected.

Err umm - that would be John NOT looking into the future event of Rev 19 and instead looking BACK to history. Something he is not doing in Rev 19.

There is no way to have John look FORWARD and say that in the FUTURE at the 2nd coming the FIRST resurrection will be "Christ being raised from the dead in 30 A.D". I see no way to bend that back around to history.

John looks to the FUTURE and in the FUTURE the FIRST resurrection he sees is at the RETURN of Christ (not the resurrection of Christ in the PAST).

I have no idea why people want to claim that as John looks to the FUTURE He sees Christ being resurrected.

Bob; I can see how it would work with the way you believe, about the soul going out of existance, until a resurrection. I don't see how it would fit, the others who believe that when you die, the soul is at rest with Jesus.

Actually I do not claim that the soul "ceases to exist" I claim that it is at rest "Those who have fallen asleep" in 1Thess 4 are those PERSONS (souls).

And as Matt 10:28 says "fear not those who kill the body but are unnable to kill the sou - rather fear Him who is able to destroy BOTH in fiery hell".

The soul remains at death in a dormant state. The only way for it to come alive again is via resurrection. As Christ said "Lazarus SLEEPs.. LAZARUS is DEAD".

The reference was to the PERSON not "a part of Lazarus is dead".

For if the soul is at rest with Jesus, then it is alive and can not be resurrected.

That is an assumption that the Bible would not say that a soul that is asleep can not be awakend via resurrection as we find in Rev 20:4-5... but I would differ on that point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

How come one can be confused between Psuxe and pneuma?
Re 20:4 clearly talks about Psuxas ( ψυχασ ).

A valuable indication by Brother Bob is that we can find nowhere the events of the Resurrection before 20:11. Isn't the Resurrection of the Believers so great that everyone is anticipating?

If ALL the Believers are resurrected in the First Resurrection( Re 20:4-5), why is the Bible silent about it though it is so great event?

The Bible is NOT silent about it - -

We see it in MAtt 24

We see it in 1Cor 15,

We see it in 1Thess 4

We see it in Rev 19-20:5.

ALL of them pointing to the SAME thing and you call this "being silent"!!??

You can find the Resurrection only in 20:12-, why?
Why does the Bible keep silence about the Resurrection of the Christian believers?

It is pretty hard to say that we do not see ALL CHRISTIANS going to be with Christ at HIS RETURN -- in John 14:1-3

It is pretty hard to say that we do not see ALL Christian going to be with Christ at his return -- Matt 24. saints "gathered to Christ" at his return.

It is pretty hard to say that we do not see ALL Christians going to be with Christ at his return -- 1Cor 15 "Those who are Christs AT his return

It is pretty hard to say that we do not see ALL Christians going to be with Christ at his return -- 1 Thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ rise FIRST"

It is pretty hard to say that we do not see ALL Christians going to be with Christ at his return -- Rev 20:4-5 "This is the FIRST resurrection and "over THESE the second death has NO Power".

It is pretty hard to say that we do not see ALL Christians going to be with Christ at his return -- John 11 (I know he will rise at the last day)

It is pretty hard to say that we do not see ALL Christians going to be with Christ at his return -- 2 PEter 1 "fix your hope COMPLETELY on this " single resurrection at the appearing of Christ

How is it that the Bible consistently points to this and yet you say "it does not exist"??

 

[BobRyan]

Their descending is mentioned in Re 19 which means that they may have been resurrected before that,

NOW THAT would be a good way NOT to mention the resurrection of the righteous. hint - there is no mention of the saints "descending" in Rev 19!

But "THIS is the FIRST resurrection over these the second death has no power" IS NOT the way to keep silent about the FIRST resurrection where the dead in Christ "RISE FIRST".

 

[Eliyahu]

BR,

You can see the difference between Re 19-20 and the way the second resurrection is described in 20:12- which is quite more detail.

Re 19 just simply state the following Jesus Christ, then 20 mentions the 3 groups of the people who will be resurrected in the first resurrection.

Re 20:12- is different and in much more detail.

The other bibles like 1 Cor 15 is not talking about the overall sequence of Endtimes.

My explanation coincides with Matt 20, 1 Cor 15:20-25, 1 Thess 4:15-, Heb 11:35, Re 20:4-5, but yours cannot explain Matt 20, Heb 11:35, who are the Rest of the Dead in Re 20:5

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Brother Bob:

"First you claim a thousand year reign of which there was a resurrection, if I understand you and then "the rest of the dead" which would have to be another resurrection,"

GE:

The SDAs believe in three resurrections (at least). Some few of the saved; the saved en mass; the lost, a thousand years later.
So two 'comings' of Jesus, before 'the thousand years' and again, after it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Brother Bob:

"I don't see where the souls were resurrected either? How can "souls" be resurrected?

I do see where the rest of the dead were resurrected after the 1000 years and "this was the First resurrection".


Quote:
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word (o. logos) of God, and which had not
worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their
hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again UNTIL the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


GE:

Try understand 'the first resurrection', a spiritual one - the regeneration of the saved.
Then remove the stressed word, 'UNTIL' -- it is not part of the text; and instead, replace it with 'in' or 'during'. So, "the rest of the dead (the wicked), lived not", but remained in their death of sin, "during the thousand years this the First resurrection"-ERA (of Christ's witnesses), but were / are to be resurrected in the 'general resurrection' of "all the dead" in the last day with the second coming of Christ.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Brother Bob:

"First you claim a thousand year reign of which there was a resurrection, if I understand you and then "the rest of the dead" which would have to be another resurrection,"

GE:

The SDAs believe in three resurrections (at least). Some few of the saved; the saved en mass; the lost, a thousand years later.
So two 'comings' of Jesus, before 'the thousand years' and again, after it.

Almost forgot; they say some 'special' wicked are also going to be raised just before Jesus' coming.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"You can see the difference between Re 19-20 and the way the second resurrection is described in 20:12- which is quite more detail."

GE:

Rv 19 and 20 are structurally parallel (in the bigger chiasm of the book as a whole). They do not follow chronologically, but chronologically, overlap. The last verses of 19 describe aspects of 20:12 on.

In other words, 19:14-21 just like 20:12-15 describes the only resurrection of the flesh in the flesh the Bible knows. Two 'parties' are to partake in that resurrection: The saved of 'the First Resurrection', and the lost or "rest of the dead".

Mark this difference between 19 and 20: In 19 where the resurrection judgment and damnation of the wicked are described, THEY, are cast into the lake of fire; in 20 where the resurrection is focussed on the saved, "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire" - no mention of anyone thrown into it!

It illustrates the parallel sequence rather than a chronological sequence.

Each and every other detail either of similarity or of difference, may be thus explained.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Says the souls "lived and reigned with Christ".

Souls of the saints are not dead and have been alive since they were made alive in Christ Jesus.

You would have to believe the souls of the saints were "dead" before this took place!!

Lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years does not mean they came alive, it just means the reigned with Christ and Lived with Him. IMO

GE:

I agree with especially your last remark, "it just means they reigned with Christ and Lived with Him". But for them to live and reign they had to come alive spiritually - through the Frist Resurrection of regeneration.
The lived; that we must accept, as souls of men. Thus John saw them - as souls who lived the lives of men born again. John saw their living; their life. He saw men, witnesses of Jesus Christ. So "You would have to believe the souls of the saints were "dead" before this took place ..." dead indeed in sin before this could take place! As you say: "Souls of the saints are not dead and have been alive since they were made alive in Christ Jesus." As John says, "... this the First Resurrection .... the Thousand Years". JOHN USES SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE. Bob Ryan and Eliyahu admit it's symbolical only where it suits their preconceived ideas.

The Gospel is Jesus became a man in order to atone for sin and vanquish death through his death and resurrection -- which He had done before He went 'away'; -- which He had done so that He, will come again to finish with death and sin and the instigator of it in the day of his coming and judgment, when also He will make the earth new and resurrect the saints into eternal life. ONE FINAL EVENT STILL. No repetitions or variations of the story of sin and redemption ever again!

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
I like the KJV.

The bodies of those souls of them that were beheaded "were dead". The translators also had to add "of them" to show it was a part of a whole. IMO.


I thought this is where you were saying that the text should be rendered "bodies of the souls" in vs 4.. was I wrong?

It was my way of saying the bodies were not there.