The "FIRST resurrection" - THE Focus of the NT saints?

[BobRyan]

Not two persons but as scripture itself says "THIS IS THE WORD OF THE LORD".

Impossible to ignore.

5 So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
6 Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD[/b] to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.


Or is this the part where we call Zechariah a "false prophet"??

Never does John OR Zechariah call these two "the people of God in all the earth".

Making stuff up just does not work in Bible prophecy sir.

 

[Eliyahu]

Not two persons but as scripture itself says "THIS IS THE WORD OF THE LORD".

Impossible to ignore.

5 So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
6 Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD[/b] to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.


Or is this the part where we call Zechariah a "false prophet"??

Never does John OR Zechariah call these two "the people of God in all the earth".

Making stuff up just does not work in Bible prophecy sir.

Are you saying any specific 2 persons are meant by 2 witnesses, 2 olive trees, 2 candlesticks?

Are they on the whole Earth now? Who are they?

You must notice 2 things, 1260 days are well explained in ch 12 which tells 1260 days are the period from the Ascension of Christ till the disappearance of the woman at the end of the world. Therefore it is the period of about 2000 years.

Who have lived 2000 years so far?
They are the key Believers in the Lord, Sir.

OK, whatever you believe about Re 11, it is up to you.
But you cannot explain the Exclusive Membership of the First Resurrection in Re 20:4-5 and the Better Resurrection, and why the First Resurrection is not described while it is so important according to your interpretation.

 

[BobRyan]

As you have rightly pointed out Rev 11 is a reference to the symbols of Zech 4. Zech states that these represent the Word of God.

One may argue that this is true "for whatever reason Zech or God speaking to Zechariah" chose... I have no argument with that.

I am simply pointing out three things.

#1. Zecharaiah states what the symbols mean
#2. John goes into a TWO chapter detail review of the future resurrection of the saints in Rev 19-20 that takes place at the appearing of Christ.
#3. In 1Peter 1 we are told that this IS the entire focus of the whole NT church - so no wonder so much space is given to it in a book like "revelation"

But trying to get Rev 11 to look like the general resurrection of the saints t the appearing of Christ just does not work.

We may differ on this - but that is my position in short.

 

[Eliyahu]

As you have rightly pointed out Rev 11 is a reference to the symbols of Zech 4. Zech states that these represent the Word of God.

One may argue that this is true "for whatever reason Zech or God speaking to Zechariah" chose... I have no argument with that.

I am simply pointing out three things.

#1. Zecharaiah states what the symbols mean

No problem

#2. John goes into a TWO chapter detail review of the future resurrection of the saints in Rev 19-20 that takes place at the appearing of Christ.

It doesn't say All the Saints resurrected.

#3. In 1Peter 1 we are told that this IS the entire focus of the whole NT church - so no wonder so much space is given to it in a book like "revelation"

The Anticipation doesn't require the Entire Saints Resurrection necessarily.
Even the Key group of the believers are enough to be the focus.
The exclusive membership for the First Resurrection mentioned in Re 20:5 emphatically rules out the over-all resurrection.

But trying to get Rev 11 to look like the general resurrection of the saints t the appearing of Christ just does not work.

We may differ on this - but that is my position in short.

There is no indication in Re 11 about the General Resurrection, but only the key people's rapture there. I hope we don't disagree on that.

 

[BobRyan]

In Rev 11 we see "the Two Witnesses" that are in fact the two olive trees of Zechariah taken up to heaven.

Zecharia says that these are symbols for "the Word of the Lord".

during the 1260 years of dark ages persecution we DO see the Word of God under attack -- specifically by the RCC. Bible's burned and the word of God removed from the people. After that time the Bible was released to the people such that it can never again be withheld from them.

Whether you see this as the Bible, the Word of God or as two saints -- it is still not the event seen in 1Thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ that RISE FIRST" i.e. it is NOT "the FIRST resurrection" that John sees when looking into the future.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Whether you see this as the Bible, the Word of God or as two saints -- it is still not the event seen in 1Thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ that RISE FIRST" i.e. it is NOT "the FIRST resurrection" that John sees when looking into the future.

in Christ,

Bob

I told you Re 11 is not about the Resurrection, but the Ascension of the Key Believers.

I recommend you to read ch 12 in order to understand what 1260 days mean.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

How I don't know, but I too believe, "...it is still not the event seen in 1Thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ that RISE FIRST" i.e. it is NOT "the FIRST resurrection" that John sees when looking into the future.":thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

I told you Re 11 is not about the Resurrection, but the Ascension of the Key Believers.

I recommend you to read ch 12 in order to understand what 1260 days mean.

I count exactly "TWO" in Rev 11 that are ascending.

And I note that Rev 11 draws our attention to the OT fact that these represent "The Word of God".

Rev 11, 12 and 13 all point to the fact that the 1260 days, the 42 months and the "Times time and half time" are all the same thing.. They are 1260 years - the same period of "dark ages" Daniel speaks to in the 1260 years of Dan 7.

 

[Eliyahu]

I count exactly "TWO" in Rev 11 that are ascending.

And I note that Rev 11 draws our attention to the OT fact that these represent "The Word of God".

Rev 11, 12 and 13 all point to the fact that the 1260 days, the 42 months and the "Times time and half time" are all the same thing.. They are 1260 years - the same period of "dark ages" Daniel speaks to in the 1260 years of Dan 7.

No, Sir.

Rev 10,11,12 are the same as Gospel Mt, Mk, Lk.

They talk about the grace period for 2000 years. They describe the Grace Period as 1260 days.
Look at ch 12 which talks about the birth of Jesus Christ and His ascension, then the woman spend 1260 days in the wilderness, later on the Dragon persecute her with the flood, the period is A time, times, a half time, which means 3 and a half time. The Tribulation for the Key Believers will be 3 and a half year as we read in ch 11 :11 as well. So, ch 12:14 equals ch 11:11 which tells us the 3 and a half year, 42 months.
Chapter 10 doesn't end as it does, but it ends in ch 11:2
In chapter 12 the woman disappears at the end, then only the Remnants of the seed of the woman are left. Where is the woman gone?
At the end of the ch 12, the Remnant of the Woman's seed keeps the commandments of God, while we read these Remnants give glory to God when the 2 witnesses ascended up to the heaven in ch 11. 11:11-13 is the only verses where we can clearly see the Rapture of the Believers.

Chapter 13 is the story about the Remnants during the 3 and a half years which means 42 months. Therefore 42 months of ch 13 is the period during which the Anti-Christ persecute the Christian Believers who are left after the Rapture of the Key Believers, while 1260 days are the period of 2000 years. Why does the period 42 months and 1260 duplicate each other? Jesus Christ worked His Office as a Prophet for 42 months (1260 days), then the Holy Spirit undertook the mission, and the period of HS is expressed as 1260 days as well.
The last days of 7 years will be divided into 2, the first half will be relatively mild persecution but it will be against the Key Believers.
The second half will suffer from the various plagues and disasters, and the Remnants will pass thru the terrible persecution, and the most of them will win over the Beast.
If you read ch 13, you won't find any period like 2000 years, but the period only during the End times. ch 10,11,12 talks about the period of 2000 years.

Revelation is not only for the End Times but also for the whole Grace Period, and about the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

These 1260 prophetic days are in the "day for year" model of prophecy.

Dan 7
23 ""Thus he said: "The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.

24 "As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.
25 "He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
26 "But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
27 "Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.
'
28 "" At this point the revelation ended. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts were greatly alarming me and my face grew pale, but I kept the matter to myself.''

1260 years



Adam Clarke Commentary –

Dan 7:25
Until a time and times and the dividing of time.
In prophetic language a time signifies a year; and a prophetic year has a year for each day. Three years and a half (a day standing for a year, as in Daniel 9:24) will amount to one thousand two hundred and sixty years, if we reckon thirty days to each month, as the Jews do.
If we knew precisely when the papal power began to exert itself in the antichristian way, then we could at once fix the time of its destruction.
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=007



Jamieson Fausset Brown
Dan 7:25

The 1260 years of papal misrule in the name of Christ may be represented by three and a half years of open Antichristianity and persecution before the millennium. Witnessing churches may be succeeded by witnessing individuals, the former occupying the longer, the latter the shorter period (Re 11:3). The beginning of the 1260 years is by ELLIOTT set at A.D. 529 or 533, when Justinian's edict acknowledged Pope John II to be head of the Church; by LUTHER, at 606, when Phocas confirmed Justinian's grant. But 752 is the most likely date, when the temporal dominion of the popes began by Pepin's grant to Stephen II (for Zachary, his predecessor's recognition of his title to France), confirmed by Charlemagne. For it was then first that the little horn plucked up three horns, and so became the prolongation of the fourth secular kingdom [NEWTON]. This would bring us down to about A.D. 2000, or the seventh thousand millenary from creation. But CLINTON makes about 1862 the seventh millenary, which may favor the dating from A.D. 529.

http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=007



Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
Dan 7:25
a time
That is, three years and a half, or, reckoning thirty days to a month, 1,260 days, equal to the same number of years in prophetic language; which, dated from the decree of Phocas constituting him the supreme head of the church, A.D. 606, terminated in 1866.
4:25,32; 12:7,11,12; Revelation 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 13:5,7

http://www.studylight.org/com/tsk/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=007

 

[BobRyan]

You are correct that Rev 12 presents Israel prior to the birth of Christ.

then the birth of Christ

Then Satan trying to kill Christ through the agency of pagan Rome.

Then Christ ascended to heaven.

Then Satan working throug the same pagan ROME and then PAPAL Rome for 1260 years trying to persecute the true church of God.

But the EARTH is used to save the church. Literally the persecuted Protestants came to America and established a place of religious liberty.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

You are correct that Rev 12 presents Israel prior to the birth of Christ.
then the birth of Christ

Then Satan trying to kill Christ through the agency of pagan Rome.

No, King Herod tried to kill Jesus.

Then Christ ascended to heaven.

correct

Then Satan working throug the same pagan ROME and then PAPAL Rome for 1260 years trying to persecute the true church of God.

Christianity was not limited to Europe, and the Satan didn't work thru
Rome only, but Christianity was extended to Asia and Ethiopia and everywhere which we may not know completely. Satan worked there too.
So, [1260 days] doesn't mean 1260 years, but it means the time since the ascension of JC until the end times which we don't know exactly but presume to be about 2000 years.

But the EARTH is used to save the church. Literally the persecuted Protestants came to America and established a place of religious liberty.

in Christ,

Bob

To God's eyes, the New Heaven and New Earth will accept the Believers by swallowing up the Tribulation, which means the same as the Rapture in 11:11-13.

 

[Eliyahu]

Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
Dan 7:25
a time
That is, three years and a half, or, reckoning thirty days to a month, 1,260 days, equal to the same number of years in prophetic language; which, dated from the decree of Phocas constituting him the supreme head of the church, A.D. 606, terminated in 1866.
4:25,32; 12:7,11,12; Revelation 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 13:5,7

http://www.studylight.org/com/tsk/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=007

I know many of this style exegesis, but they are wrong.
3 and a half days or 3 and a half times mean 3 years and a half of the Tribulation during the end times.
However we should note that it also represented the Grace Period during which the Believers are available to preach the Gospel throughout 2000 years as Jesus worked as a prophet.
Jesus was the Prophet after Moses, for 1260 days.
After finishing His Office as the Prophet, He bravely went to Calvary to fulfill His office as the High Priest after Melchizedek, and offered Himself as the Lamb of God.
Now one more mission is left, which means that He will come as the King of Kings, after the King David.
Until that time we remember Him and His Blood and Death by the Lord's Supper ( 1 Cor 11:26)

The Holy Spirit who preside the Grace Period will pass thru the same pattern as Jesus did for 1260 days.

 

[BobRyan]

Surely Egypt, India, China etc all had Christians going to that area - but JUST as we see the focus on Dan 7 is on Europe and the Near East in the form of Babylon, Israel, Greece, Rome, Medo-Persia so we see the Bible consistently uses that frame of reference in Rev 12 an 13. Not really that surprising that when it talks about the same 1260 year persecution as is described in Dan 7 it uses the same context for the Christian church -

 

[BobRyan]

No, King Herod tried to kill Jesus.

It is pretty hard to miss the fact that the Jews were dominated by Rome at the time (subjugated actually) and that Herod served as ROME's ruler in that region -- he reported to Ceasar. The Bible is correct to show Rome as the power that is in charge at the time of Christ and it's agents are the ones trying to kill him at his birth and that do actually kill him on the cross.

 

[Eliyahu]

It is pretty hard to miss the fact that the Jews were dominated by Rome at the time (subjugated actually) and that Herod served as ROME's ruler in that region -- he reported to Ceasar. The Bible is correct to show Rome as the power that is in charge at the time of Christ and it's agents are the ones trying to kill him at his birth and that do actually kill him on the cross.

Pilate was the man who tried to spare the life of Jesus while the High Priest and the elders tried to kill Him.
The Lamb of God was supposed to be killed by the Priest as in OT.
Your view reminds me of the Apostles Creed which is full of errors.

 

[BobRyan]

Pilat had to approve of the crucifixion or the Jews could not do it at all.

Pilat gets the blame as does Herod as we see BOTH of them involved in efforts to kill Jesus.

But in Acts 2 the Jews are also included in that list.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Pilat had to approve of the crucifixion or the Jews could not do it at all.

Pilat gets the blame as does Herod as we see BOTH of them involved in efforts to kill Jesus.

But in Acts 2 the Jews are also included in that list.

in Christ,

Bob

You must see the Forest, not the woods.

Satan worked there, whosoever may have worked for him.

The Church was in the wilderness from the Ascension of Jesus until now and will be until the End of this world, until the Rapture, then there will be the Remnants of her seed fighting the Beast and the Harlot, details of which are explained in ch 13.

Otherwise, you cannot explain the period between the Ascension and 7c.AD, and the period between 19c and End times when the Beast rise up.

 

[BobRyan]

We see the 1260 years in Rev 11 as 1260 days and as 42 months.... this is the dark ages persecution of the saints by the RCC.

We see it again in Rev 12 -- following the time when Christ was taken to heaven.

Rev 11, 12, 13 and Dan 7 all provide details about these SAME 1260 years of persecution of the NT church for the majority of the time that it exists in the 2000 years after Christ.

It is identified as 1260 prophetic days, 42 months and "Times Time and 1/2 time"

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 12
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.
4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And [b]the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.
[/b]5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
7 And there was [b]war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war[/b],
8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, ""Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for [b]the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God[/b] day and night.
11 ""And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
12 ""For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. [b]Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil[/b] has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.''



It is very clear - this is Satan working through Pagan and Papal Rome not "merely Jews"

Think about the millions of Christians slaughtered over the many many centuries (in fact 1260 years ending in 1798) -- nothing in history of the Jews compares to it -- but you think the Bible "missed it" when looking into the future and seeing the persecution of the saints???

in Christ,

Bob