The "FIRST resurrection" - THE Focus of the NT saints?

[BobRyan]

In 1Thess 4 Paul tells us to focus on certain end-time facts regarding the "DEAD in Christ" who are "raised FIRST" so that we DO have hope and are NOT like "those who have NO hope".

Peter tells us to "Fix our hope COMPLETELY" on that future event.

John tells us Christ has gone away but "Will come AGAIN to RECEIVE us unto Himself in order that WHERE He is THERE we will be ALSO".

And in Rev 20 John goes into detail telling us about the "FIRST resurrection" for those over whom "The SECOND DEATH has NO power" -- the "blessed and holy ones".

The question is -- why is THE focus of the NT saints as described in scripture - so confusing to Christians today?

The Dead in Christ rise FIRST.

The FIRST resurrection is that of the "Blessed and holy" over whom "the second death has no power".

This could not be any more obvious friends.

What say you?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

To get the ball rolling I am adding a post on this subject that was submitted by Eliyahu --

Eliyahu

Originally Posted by BobRyan
The point is that THE resurrection that is the focus of Revelation is in Rev 20:4-5 "THE FIRST resurrection".

First Resurrection means the Resurrection of First group of people.
The first group of unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire when Jesus comes. This is the leaders of the Believers like 144,000, while the Satan and the leading group of unbelievers are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Quote:
No surprisingly -- this is also THE RESURRECTION that is the focus for all NT Bible writers as we see in 1Thess 4 "The DEAD in CHRIST will RISE FIRST".

The governing people like 144,000 and the Martyrs shall take the priority and will be resurrected first, they will come down and stand on Mount Zion ( 14:1-5)
The people joining in the First Resurrection are listed in 20:4, not all believers, but the rest of them shall not live again until 1000 years, which didn't distinguish between believers and unbelievers.

Bob said
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That means that the FIRST resurrection being highlighted in Rev 20 IS THE RAPTURE!

Resurrection may be the pre-requisite for the participation in the Millennium

Bob said
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Now take a look at Rev 19 -- everyone agrees THAT is the SECOND COMING!

Correct!

Bob said
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That means that the saints are not taken to EARTH at the Second coming - rather the DEAD in Christ rise FIRST and they are taken to HEAVEN!

No, but we just meet Him in the air, and then come down to live on the earth which may be protected by some way against the Earth.

Bob said
Quote:
The Millennium for the saints is spent WITH Christ IN heaven.

Then you won't have Gog and Magog in 20:8. I believe Gog means Georgia and Magog may be somewhere in Russia. Grugia where Schevardnaje and Stalin were born ( I don't know the exact spelling of Schvardnaje who was president of Grugia). Those are earthly names.

Bob said
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"I will COME AGAIN and RECEIVE you (up) to myself that WHERE I am THERE you may be also".

Christ is coming to take the saints to heaven,.

But via several steps, Staying and sleeping in Paradise, Resurrection, then New Millennium, then Heaven finally.
20:13-14 talks about the second death, which I believe relates to the second resurrection for the average believers and for the average unbelievers.

 

[BobRyan]

In Rev 20 Satan is thrown alive into the lake of fire at the END of the 1000 yearsl.

In Rev 20 the "Second DEATH" is the lake of fire event at the END of the 1000 years.

In Rev 20 the ONLY ONES who are raised and NOT subject to the SECOND death lake of fire are those who are raised BEFORE the 1000 years is ended - those raised in the "FIRST resurrection". They alone are listed as the "blessed and holy".

in 1Thess 4 they are called the "DEAD in CHRIST" and they are "raised FIRST".

Since we know that 1Thess 4 is the rapture event and in Rev 19-20 we have the second coming - it is clear that we are taken to heaven in the rapture AT the second coming just as Matt 24 describes it! That is why this is THE FOCUS of the NT church !!


1Peter 1
6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.


10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.[/b]
12 It was [b]revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you[/b], in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you[/b] by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven things into which angels long to look.

13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, [b]fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.[/b]

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible teaches us that the body parts “return to the dust” by “contrast” to the “PERSON” that rises again. The body parts “decay and return to the dust” whereas the “person” is the one who has “fallen asleep” according to Paul.

“Those who (persons) are asleep” are the saints “the Dead in Christ” – by contrast “their body parts” simply decay and return to dust.

1Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

Paul points out the “solution” for those who might otherwise grieve “as those who have no hope” when they encounter the death of a loved one.
Paul states that the key is “being infomed about those who ARE asleep”.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who(persons) have fallen asleep in Jesus.

God will “bring with him those who (persons) have fallen asleep”

Is Christ “bringing dead bodies with him”??? some claim that this is the case for “those who sleep” for they claim this is only a reference to “dead bodies”.

But we know this is not true! We know that bodies “return to DUST” in decay – they do not “sleep” in death.

It is the PERSON who is “asleep in death”. They are referred to as “THOSE WHO are asleep”

Paul shows us that the difference between those who grieve having no hope -- and those who do not, is in understanding the truth regarding those "who ARE asleep".

Paul has the entire NT church focused on this 1Thess 4 resurrection event as "THE hope" and "the focus" of the church "in hope".

 

[BobRyan]

As we see Paul focus the entire "hope" of the NT church on the resurrection event of 1Thess 4 - which is the 2nd coming and resurrection of the saints.

In the same way we saw Peter focus the entire "hope" of the NT church on the "grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ"

Paul is fully focused himself on that same future resurrection event --

The "dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1thess 4

The FIRST resurrection is that one that occurs at the start of the 1000 year (Rev 20:4-5)

And so Paul is focused on that single event


Phil 3
10 [b]that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings[/b], being conformed to His death;
11 [b]in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.[/b]
12 Not that I have [b]already obtained[/b] it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of[/b] by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, [b]I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet[/b]; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I [b]press on toward the goal for the prizeof the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Eliyahu]

The FIRST resurrection is that one that occurs at the start of the 1000 year (Rev 20:4-5)

And so Paul is focused on that single event.

YOu better analyze who are participating in the first resurrection precisely, mentioned in v 4.

 

[Eliyahu]

In Rev 20 Satan is thrown alive into the lake of fire at the END of the 1000 yearsl.

In Rev 20 the "Second DEATH" is the lake of fire event at the END of the 1000 years.

Bob

You should keep in mind that the Beast and the Idol worshippers will be thrown into the Lake of Fire already in 19:20.
These Idol worshippers were on the earth at the time when Jesus comes. These are earlier than that of 20:12-13.
That means the partial resurrection is inevitable.
Satan will be thrown into the bottomless pit. 20:1

 

[BobRyan]

All those wicked who are ALIVE at the Rev 19 second coming of Christ (those upon whom the birds are feasting in Rev 19) die "the first death" and all those wicked raised to life "after the 1000 years are complete" are to suffer the "second death".

 

[BobRyan]

YOu better analyze who are participating in the first resurrection precisely, mentioned in v 4.

Heb 11 descrives the saints of the OT the same way.

They are all called "the dead in Christ" because all of them died in faith regarding the Messiah (Christ - Greek for the Hebrew word Messiah).

1 Cor 10 states that they were all baptized inot Christ - and that the Rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10

1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (Petra) which followed them; and the rock (Petra) was Christ.[/b]

 

[Eliyahu]

All those wicked who are ALIVE at the Rev 19 second coming of Christ (those upon whom the birds are feasting in Rev 19) die "the first death" and all those wicked raised to life "after the 1000 years are complete" are to suffer the "second death".

19:20 - thrown into the Lake of Fire
I don't think they will be resurrected again because Lake of Fire is the final destination after the Judgment, but I don't rule it out ( maybe little possibility)

19:21 - eaten by birds - yes, these will be resurrected for the Judgment

The distinction in the Judgment is very much fine and delicate, the Judgment is not Rambo style drive and shooting, or lump sum grouping.

The people who worship the idols and persecute the True Christian Believers are exceptionally wicked,and they are always mentioned as a special group to be punished. They would be judged every day already in therir lives as we read John 3:18- .
This is why they are thrown into the Lake of Fire immediately, and they include the ANTI-CHRIST.

20:15 implies the people found in the Book of Life can be resurrected for eternal life. If the people whose names are recorded in the Book of Life are not there at all, then there would be no need for the Book to be opened. v 12 says the same. The born again Christians will be judged according to their works.
I believe this is the second resurrection.

As for 1 Thess 4:15, "The Alive shall not precede the Asleep" doesn't mean that all the Dead will precede the Alive. The partial resurrection of the 144,000 and the Martyrs will precede the Alive.
This coincides with 1 Cor 15:23-24, 26.

We must recgonize one important rule: there is a better resurrection and a worse resurrection ( Heb 11:35).

Participation in the New Millennium is a great, great privilege and it is not offered to all Christian believers, but to only several groups as we read 20:4-
1) Special Saints - governing body of the New Millennium
This may include the 144,000 ( or plus 2 witnesses who are the core part of Believers but raptured in the Tribulation - 11:11-13)
2) Martyrs
3) The True Believers who struggled against the Beast and the False Prophet, against the Great Harlot of Babylon on the seven hills, but survived the Great Tribulation

The rest of the Believers will not be resurrected until the 1000 years are finished ( 20:5)

 

[Eliyahu]

Heb 11 descrives the saints of the OT the same way.

They are all called "the dead in Christ" because all of them died in faith regarding the Messiah (Christ - Greek for the Hebrew word Messiah).

1 Cor 10 states that they were all baptized inot Christ - and that the Rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10

1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (Petra) which followed them; and the rock (Petra) was Christ.[/b]

I don't distinguish between OT believers and NT believers by their nature at all.

They were saved on Credit that Jesus would pay for their sins all, provided that they believed in the shadow of Chrst.( Rock, Tabernacle, all the sacrifices, altar, Brazen Serpent, Passover etc were the shadows of Jesus Christ)

NT believers after Cross are saved on Prepaid condition that Jesus paid everything Once For All, at the Cross.

The Believers at the time while Jesus was on the earth were saved Cash Payment or Cash On Delivery ( by seeing and believing in Him right away)

Am I clear?

Even Revelation talks about Israelites a lot, like 12 gates and 12 stars etc, so it surely include OT believers.

Good job to confirm the Petra which is feminine while Petro is the masculine, actually Petra came from Tsur in Hebrew, the Rock of Salvation in Deut 32:15-18 which was the Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ.

 

[Eliyahu]

The reason why I say the people in the Lake of Fire don't come out for the Judgment:

Rev 19:
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Rev 20:
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


In other words, even the Devil will join the Beast and the False prophet in the Lake of Fire, who were already there ( since 19:20)


Doesn't it make sense?

 

[BobRyan]

The "beast" is not a person nor is the "false prophet" they are institutions destroyed at the 2nd coming. THE PEOPLE we see raised before and after the 1000 years are "PEOPLE" the devil is the devil -- but as we saw in Dan 7-8 the BEASTS represent nations and religious systems.

"Better doctrine through more Bible reading" -

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

In 1Thess 4 Paul tells us to focus on certain end-time facts regarding the "DEAD in Christ" who are "raised FIRST" so that we DO have hope and are NOT like "those who have NO hope".

Peter tells us to "Fix our hope COMPLETELY" on that future event.

John tells us Christ has gone away but "Will come AGAIN to RECEIVE us unto Himself in order that WHERE He is THERE we will be ALSO".

And in Rev 20 John goes into detail telling us about the "FIRST resurrection" for those over whom "The SECOND DEATH has NO power" -- the "blessed and holy ones".

The question is -- why is THE focus of the NT saints as described in scripture - so confusing to Christians today?

The Dead in Christ rise FIRST.

The FIRST resurrection is that of the "Blessed and holy" over whom "the second death has no power".

This could not be any more obvious friends.

What say you?

in Christ,

Bob

GE:

Quoting you, "in Rev 20 John goes into detail..."

I cannot accept your method of associating Scriptures that do not talk of the same things with one another.

In Rv20 John in exact words defines what he meant with the 'first resurrection'. It was not a resurrection of the flesh in the flesh, but of the spiritual creation of regeneration, clearly. If one receive this 'resurrection' in this life through faith, no future judgment can change one's status in Christ; no 'second death' or death of hell has power over him, because Christ has redeemed him from the death of sin already.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"The Dead in Christ rise FIRST ..."

This is not what you want to tell us, that before the (alleged) thousand years the righteous are raised, than after it, comes the resurrection of the ungodly only!
"The Dead in Christ rise FIRST ..." in juxtaposition with Jesus' return (second coming) and the resurrection of the righteous dead. "The Dead in Christ rise FIRST ..." then "we" the living saved, at His coming together with the raised righteous dead, go meet him as He comes in the air while raising all the dead at once - the righteous to eternal life; the ungodly to eternal damnation.
I've never seen these Scriptures so garbled as by you.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The "beast" is not a person nor is the "false prophet" they are institutions destroyed at the 2nd coming. THE PEOPLE we see raised before and after the 1000 years are "PEOPLE" the devil is the devil -- but as we saw in Dan 7-8 the BEASTS represent nations and religious systems.

"Better doctrine through more Bible reading" -

in Christ,

Bob

GE:

'Before and after the 1000 years' is before and after the present Christian era of which 'the thousande years' is, a, symbolical representation like the many others used by John for it.

 

[Melanie]

......the SDA does not believe in hellfire or indeed a triune God.....their beliefs on Jesus Christ are very distorted also, I do not think there is a belief in that mankind has a soul...it is all very strange

 

[Eliyahu]

The "beast" is not a person nor is the "false prophet" they are institutions destroyed at the 2nd coming. THE PEOPLE we see raised before and after the 1000 years are "PEOPLE" the devil is the devil -- but as we saw in Dan 7-8 the BEASTS represent nations and religious systems.

"Better doctrine through more Bible reading" -

in Christ,

Bob

What is the institution?
Are you talking about the buildings? NOPE!
Are you talking about the Legal Entity? Then it's invisible, right? NOPE!

They are actual person, and they are ANTI-CHRIST and World President.

False Prophet is the religious person, the other Beast is the political person who have the power to persecute the Believers.
The World religion will be united and the only True Christian believers will be isolated. In that process many cults will be persecuted and killed too. So, the fact that any people are persecuted by the Anti-Christ and the Beast doesn't guarantee that they are the True believers.
However, the True Christian believers will be protected by God as we read the other chapters.

 

[BobRyan]

......the SDA does not believe in hellfire or indeed a triune God.....their beliefs on Jesus Christ are very distorted also, I do not think there is a belief in that mankind has a soul...it is all very strange

I gotta admit that sounds pretty wild to me too!

Where did you "dig that dirt up"?

Do you have any actual facts to go with it?

(Aside from the one actual fact you DID mention "it is all very strange"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

GE:

'Before and after the 1000 years' is before and after the present Christian era of which 'the thousande years' is, a, symbolical representation like the many others used by John for it.

First class story telling sir.

in Christ,

Bob