The "FIRST resurrection" - THE Focus of the NT saints?

[BobRyan]

What is the institution?
Are you talking about the buildings? NOPE!
Are you talking about the Legal Entity? Then it's invisible, right? NOPE!

They are actual person, and they are ANTI-CHRIST and World President.

Read Rev 20 carefully - ONLY AFTER the 1000 years is the 2nd death event begun.

Also read Dan 7 and 8 carefully - the beasts are nations and in Rev 13 we find that the beast of Rev 13 is a composit of all four beasts in Dan 7!

The nation exists as long as there is a national government - an organization. Once the wicked are all killed at the 2nd coming that government no longer exists.

The False Prophet is merely an apostate religious system of some type - and that too ceases at the second coming.

But of even greater significance is the fact of the FIRST resurrection in Rev 20:1-4 and 1Thess 4 -- and the fact that the ENTIRE NT church was focused on that one event!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Read Rev 20 carefully - ONLY AFTER the 1000 years is the 2nd death event begun.

correct.

Also read Dan 7 and 8 carefully - the beasts are nations and in Rev 13 we find that the beast of Rev 13 is a composit of all four beasts in Dan 7!

The nation exists as long as there is a national government - an organization. Once the wicked are all killed at the 2nd coming that government no longer exists.

The False Prophet is merely an apostate religious system of some type - and that too ceases at the second coming.

I need more thoughts on this. The 4th Beast in Daniel 7 is the Empire governing thru 2000 years since Jesus Christ.

But the beast in Rev 13 was emerging from the wounds by war.
If you meant the human organization by the Beast, yes, it could be as it includes the multitude of the people. Apparently the Beast and the False prophet are thrown into the lake.

But of even greater significance is the fact of the FIRST resurrection in Rev 20:1-4 and 1Thess 4 -- and the fact that the ENTIRE NT church was focused on that one event!

in Christ,

Bob

Yes, but it doesn't mean necessarily that only the one time resurrection is reserved for the Believers.
Again you can read the membership for the Millennium mentioned in 20:4, and the rest will not live again until 1000 years.
The first resurrection is the focus of all the scriptures because it is a big, big event, and the second resurrection after 1000 years is just a follow up for the first. Why does 20:4 specify the qualifications?

 

[BobRyan]

Because as Dan 7 and 8 point out - Christians of all ages have sufferred persecution. In Gen 3 God said that war would exist between the people of the snake (those that follow Satan) and those that follow Christ. Starting with Cain and Abel we see this and it goes right through to the 2nd coming.

 

[BobRyan]

I need more thoughts on this. The 4th Beast in Daniel 7 is the Empire governing thru 2000 years since Jesus Christ.

But the beast in Rev 13 was emerging from the wounds by war.
If you meant the human organization by the Beast, yes, it could be as it includes the multitude of the people. Apparently the Beast and the False prophet are thrown into the lake.

There are two beasts in Rev 13 -- the first one is the composite of Dan 7 you see it in vs 1-4 and it is the one being honored by the second beast "(the lamb like beast - or beast with horns like a lamb)" in Rev 13. The first beast rising out of the sea (many languages tongues and peoples according to Rev 17) is allowed to persecute the saints for 1260 years (times time and half a time -- dark ages) as we see in Rev 12, Rev 13 and Dan 7... They all speak to that same persecution of the saints.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

There are two beasts in Rev 13 -- the first one is the composite of Dan 7 you see it in vs 1-4 and it is the one being honored by the second beast "(the lamb like beast - or beast with horns like a lamb)" in Rev 13. The first beast rising out of the sea (many languages tongues and peoples according to Rev 17) is allowed to persecute the saints for 1260 years (times time and half a time -- dark ages) as we see in Rev 12, Rev 13 and Dan 7... They all speak to that same persecution of the saints.

in Christ,

Bob

1260 days is the period of 3 years and half a year, during whuch Elijah shut the sky not to rain, during which Jesus preached the Gospel as a prophet. If you read ch 12, the period after the ascension of Son of God till the end of the earth is mentioned as 1,260 days. Therefore we can safely conclude that 1,260 days is the period for the NT church preach the Gospel, e.g. 2000years from the ascension till the partial rapture of the saints.
As for the Beast you can be right.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

First class story telling sir.

in Christ,

Bob

GE:

Yes, indeed - the plain truth as it is in Jesus Christ for grade ones. That's for me; not explanations like yours that required conferences, infighting and majority decision determined by 'inspiration' and visions.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

1260 days is the period of 3 years and half a year, during whuch Elijah shut the sky not to rain, during which Jesus preached the Gospel as a prophet. If you read ch 12, the period after the ascension of Son of God till the end of the earth is mentioned as 1,260 days. Therefore we can safely conclude that 1,260 days is the period for the NT church preach the Gospel, e.g. 2000years from the ascension till the partial rapture of the saints.
As for the Beast you can be right.

GE:

.... and churches are built upon dogma like this!

 

[BobRyan]

1260 days is the period of 3 years and half a year, during whuch Elijah shut the sky not to rain, during which Jesus preached the Gospel as a prophet. If you read ch 12, the period after the ascension of Son of God till the end of the earth is mentioned as 1,260 days. Therefore we can safely conclude that 1,260 days is the period for the NT church preach the Gospel, e.g. 2000years from the ascension till the partial rapture of the saints.
As for the Beast you can be right.

In Rev 12 -- we are told the Satan tried to kill the Messiah at his birth and that after the resurrection of Christ he church was persecuted by Rome for 1260 years. (Hint: the Dark Ages for the Church - over a thousand years of persecution of the saints).

That has already been confirmed to have happened just as predicted.

Daniel saw the same persecution in Dan 7 (times, time and half-a time) starting (according to Daniel) after the division of pagan Rome into 10 subkingdoms (fall of the Roman Empire) and rise of the little horn power of Europe (RCC). It is also shown to happen before Christ returns. It points to the fact that the saints are persecuted until the judgment scene of Dan 7 takes place.

So that is the easy part - since it has all played out just as the Bible stated.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

But we digress somewhat from the topic of the thread -- so back to the OP.

John tells us in Rev 20:1-5 about the FIRST resurrection seen to take place at the Rev 19-20 "Return" of Christ, appearing of Christ in heaven.

Paul tells us to focus entirely on the "Resurrection of the DEAD in Christ" that takes place at the return of Christ, appearing of Christ in heaven. Paul says "this one thing I do" in Phil 3 and speaks of seeking the goal to "attain to the resurrection" of the persecuted church - the saints "who suffer the loss of all things for the sake of knowing Christ".

in John 14 Christ points to this as THE focus of the church "IF I go away I will come again to RECEIVE you to Myself in order that WHERE I am THERE you may be also"

Peter tells us to "focus our hope completely" on this event.

This shows a solid uniform presentation of end-time events by the major NT writers.

(As one might expect).

Yes, but it doesn't mean necessarily that only the one time resurrection is reserved for the Believers.
Again you can read the membership for the Millennium mentioned in 20:4, and the rest will not live again until 1000 years.
The first resurrection is the focus of all the scriptures because it is a big, big event, and the second resurrection after 1000 years is just a follow up for the first. Why does 20:4 specify the qualifications?

The focus on the "persecuted saints" being raised and redeemend - is the same focus that we see in Dan 7 regarding the persecuted saints that included persecution related to the rise and fall of the 4th beast of Dan 7 (Pagan Rome) and the rise of the little-horn of Dan 7 (RCC).

That has always been true so we would expect the grand focus that John gives to events surrounding the appearing of Christ and the resurrection of the saints at that time - to be consistent with the entire message of the Bible regarding this event.

But let's consider the "alternative" for a second. Suppose this grand focus of all NTauthors (even John in John 14:1-3) is NOT being discussed in the GRAND focus chapter of Rev 19-20 where we are told about the "FIRST resurrection". Suppose this is NOT where "the dead in Christ RISE FIRST"... what a great missfire - to land with such focus on the return of Christ, resurrection of the saints -- calling it the FIRST RESURRECTION only to have the REAL focus of ALL NT saints be "on some other - as yet unmentioned resurrection and return of Christ" in the BOOK that is supposed to tell us about end time events!!??

Think about this glaringly wrong result which they are stuck with - is the clear blatant sign that some church groups have taken a "wrong turn" in Bible interpretation of end-time events --

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Here is the Scriptures' definition of the 'first resurrection' that indemnifies the believer from the 'second death' - "first class story telling", as Bob Ryan decided,
"Ye are complete in Him ... in whom also ye are circumcised .... in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh .... being co-buried with Him in the baptism (of His death) wherein ye were co-raised with Him through the faith of the life-creating operation of God who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins .... hath He quickened (co-life-made-'sunedzohpoi-ehsen') together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses."
See also Romans 5/6.
"Blessed (with and trhough the above!) and holy (through and with the above) are those (or, 'is he') who have part in the first resurrection" -- as described here above. Why? "Because on such, the second death (the wages for unforgiven sins as above said in the Word) hath no power." Why? because they "(knew) Him and the power of His resurrection"!

"But the rest of the dead (those who were not partakers in Jesus' suffering, death and resurrection through faith) lived not until the end ..." "the end" namely, "of the thousand years", "the thousand years" namely", during which the martyrs for Christ were beheaded (4) ... none but the present Christian age.

Really 'grade one story-telling' of first calliber Divine Truth!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BobRyan:

"John tells us in Rev 20:1-5 about the FIRST resurrection seen to take place at the Rev 19-20 "Return" of Christ ... "

GE:

I don't find it. Who is 'story telling'? No! John tells us the 'first resurrection' took place BEFORE Christ returned. "They lived and reigned with Christ (having been co-crucified and co-raised with Him in His baptism of death and resurrection) a thousand years." And not, "UNTIL the thousand years were finished / expired" (7), shall the devil be freed to begin his last attack against the rule of and kingdom of Christ, and be destroyed by the returning Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

By contrast - many other people DO find Rev 19 in their Bibles and DO find that it SHOWS us the appearing of Christ on a white horse -- apearing the air - appearing with the Armies of heaven.

Many people DO see that the devastation and destruction seen in Rev 19 is then associated with the resurrection of the saints SEEN in Rev 20:4-5 which is called the FIRST resurrection -- the "resurrection of the holy and blessed" the resurrection of the saints "over whom the SECOND death has NO power".



These are in deed - the "Dead in Christ" being raised in the "FIRST resurrection" by every measure - by all accounts. And so it should be for as Paul stated in 1Thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ rise FIRST"

And what honest objective reader could ever truly be surprised that "this SAME focus for ALL NT writers" continues to be the focus event for John in Revelation as he is given the task of revealing the future to those SAME NT readers - NT saints!!??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"The Thousand Years" is a SYMBOL; like the whole book of Revelation is made up of SYMBOLS. It is NOT literal, because the whole trend of the Book is symbolic.
Revelation is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" - not of politics or world history. 'John tells', of the Kingdom heaven come true and real in Christ, today!
Speculation kills the message of the Revelation; it kills the message of Jesus Christ. It thwarts the very design of John with writing the Revelation. Speculation should not intrigue us while reading it; faith should - the faith that saves - and despairs not. All these speculations are always depressing, being the desperate attempts of those who fear, to play prophets of doom.

 

[BobRyan]

Wrong sir GE.

In Rev 19 AND 20 -- God is "real" Angels are "REAL" saints are "REAL" the appearing of Christ in REv 19 is "REAL" the lake of fire in Rev 20 is "REAL" the wicked and second death are "REAL" the saints persecuted are REAL and the 1000 years are REAL just as in ALL CASES the term for "x-number YEARS" is REAL in ALL of scripture when the text speaks either of history or a future event!!

At this point - it has once again fallen to me to stated the incredibly obvious part of the discussion. (I don't mind having that role -- but I like pointing it out when the discussion gets to a point like this)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I can say - actually I must, say, my life has been one of changing my own mind and own opinions and convictions .... constantly, and constantly, for the better, thank God!

Poor never failing, full proof convicts of their selves!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Wrong sir GE.

In Rev 19 AND 20 -- God is "real" Angels are "REAL" saints are "REAL" the appearing of Christ in REv 19 is "REAL" the lake of fire in Rev 20 is "REAL" the wicked and second death are "REAL" the saints persecuted are REAL and the 1000 years are REAL just as in ALL CASES the term for "x-number YEARS" is REAL in ALL of scripture when the text speaks either of history or a future event!!

At this point - it has once again fallen to me to stated the incredibly obvious part of the discussion. (I don't mind having that role -- but I like pointing it out when the discussion gets to a point like this)

in Christ,

Bob

GE;

God is "real"; yet is described in metaphore, even as a "Lamb"!
Angels are "REAL";yet are described in metaphore, even as "winds"!
Saints are "REAL"; yet are described with metaphore, even as "souls under (an) altar"!
The appearing of Christ in REv 19 is "REAL"; which no one has denied but which you have watered down to a job half-done.
The lake of fire in Rev 20 is "REAL"; Really? a "lake", of 'fire'?
The wicked are 'real'; but are described with symbols like beasts, horses, whatever!
The second death is "REAL"; and so is the resurrection in Him, Jesus Christ, of those for whom the second death is as good as unreal, because it has no power over them.
The saints persecuted are REAL and the 1000 years are REAL. In fact as real as you and I today living in the peace and comfort of the very same era. Because of those beheaded before us. We live and rule like kings, because Jesus has triumphed. The whole world, this moment, breaths, because it lives under the rule of Christianity (no matter in how sad a state) and ultimately under the rule of the God of Christianity.

"... just as in ALL CASES the term for "x-number YEARS" is REAL in ALL of scripture when the text speaks either of history or a future event!!" ... while not actually it speaks of 'years', but - as you say - of 'days'? Come on!

 

[Eric B]

Here is the Scriptures' definition of the 'first resurrection' that indemnifies the believer from the 'second death' - "first class story telling", as Bob Ryan decided,
"Ye are complete in Him ... in whom also ye are circumcised .... in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh .... being co-buried with Him in the baptism (of His death) wherein ye were co-raised with Him through the faith of the life-creating operation of God who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins .... hath He quickened (co-life-made-'sunedzohpoi-ehsen') together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses."
See also Romans 5/6.
"Blessed (with and trhough the above!) and holy (through and with the above) are those (or, 'is he') who have part in the first resurrection" -- as described here above. Why? "Because on such, the second death (the wages for unforgiven sins as above said in the Word) hath no power." Why? because they "(knew) Him and the power of His resurrection"!

"But the rest of the dead (those who were not partakers in Jesus' suffering, death and resurrection through faith) lived not until the end ..." "the end" namely, "of the thousand years", "the thousand years" namely", during which the martyrs for Christ were beheaded (4) ... none but the present Christian age.

Really 'grade one story-telling' of first calliber Divine Truth!

So if the first resurrection is just the spiritual birth of Christians in this age, then is the second resurrection a spiritual birth of the rest of the lost? Or does that then become a literal resurrection from physical death?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

So if the first resurrection is just the spiritual birth of Christians in this age, then is the second resurrection a spiritual birth of the rest of the lost? Or does that then become a literal resurrection from physical death?

GE:

Scriptures do not speak of a 'second resurrection'; it only speaks of a "second death". On the other hand, the Scriptures never speaks of a 'first death'; it only speaks of a "first resurrection".

The 'second death' is eternal damnation; the old and first, death of sin. The 'second death' is what the believer with his sinful nature was born in; and was saved out of, by grace, through faith, in Christ. He never enters into it again. In other words, we are saved out of and from, hell.

This is the death Jesus who died only once, died for our atonement and salvation. He died the second death. Even the Seventh Day Adventists say so. Actually Jesus 'died' eternal death, through His suffering of it alive! He went through death's anguish and pangs, in full consciousness and while exercising His utter free will! That for Christ was 'the hell' -- ours!

His 'hell' became our 'heaven', our, "first resurrection"; our salvation.

So the first resurrection is the spiritual birth of Christians of all ages -- of believers of all ages.

There is no 'first resurrection' or spiritual birth for the lost - only the 'second death' awaits them at the 'second coming' of Christ and their literal resurrection from physical death.

 

[Eric B]

"But the rest of the dead lived not until the end ..."

When they live again, that is their resurrection. Since it occurs after the "first resurrection" [i.e. of the righteous], it can be called the "second" resurrection.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

When they live again, that is their resurrection. Since it occurs after the "first resurrection" [i.e. of the righteous], it can be called the "second" resurrection.

GE:

You may not, 'call' it a 'second resurrection'. "That is their resurrection" - the 'surrection' of the ungodly. The Greek has no word 'again'. "They lived-'edzehsan' not until were (or 'was) finished the (one) thousand years", is all it says.

Yes, the resurrection of the 'rest' of the ungodly, in fact occurs after the 'first resurrection' - and after the whole period during which 'first resurrection' had been possible - the era of grace, this age.