Hebrews tells the same truth in about three places. (May be more!). It says, "If Jesus had given them rest, He (God) would not after these things (that Jesus accomplished) again speak of another day."
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The "FIRST resurrection" - THE Focus of the NT saints?
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
Eric B said:
That's what many people misunderstand:
Return to the Bible:
Rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection
Where are the average Christians there except the Judging Saints plus Martyrs? Why doesn't Bible say " Rest of the Righteous" but just Rest of the Dead? Why there is no Book of Life in the first resurrection?
20:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
What about whosoever was found written in the Book of Life in the second resurrection?
Hb10:12, "But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down at the right hand of God - from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering He perfected for ever them that are sanctified ... Now where remission of these (sins) is, there, no more offering for sin is. ... For there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, BUT, a certain, fearful looking for, of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries!"
Just what John says!
Just what John says!
Eliyahu:
"What about whosoever was found written in the Book of Life in the second resurrection?"
GE:
Read what I have posted about a 'second', resurrection! You just look over it; is it too lowly a thought for you to consider?
"What about whosoever was found written in the Book of Life in the second resurrection?"
GE:
Read what I have posted about a 'second', resurrection! You just look over it; is it too lowly a thought for you to consider?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Eric B said:
That is certainly easy to see as being true.
The hard part is admitting that the main focus that John is giving to this "first resurrection" in Rev 19 and 20 is in fact the main focus that all NT writers give to the saints -- "The DEAD in Christ that rise FIRST".
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Eliyahu said:
As I said -- look at Dan 7 look at John 14 (in this world you have trouble) look at Heb 11.. they ALL describe the saints as "persecuted" and dying for their faith. They do not describe "Christians loved by the world and doing well".
Starting with Gen 3 the emphasis is on "war" between the people of God and the world of Satan.
When the text says ""OVER THESE the second death has NO Power" what it is also saying is "over those raised in the SECOND resurrection the SECOND death DOES have power".
Those in the second resurrection are "judged according to deeds" and we know that in a strict judgment of deeds as we see in Romans 3 - all go to hell for "all have sinned".
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
None so blind and he who "will not see".
It is left as a simple exercise for the reader to - read over Rev 19 and 20 and SEE the First Resurrection placed in 20 NOT 19. And SEE that 19 describes the appearing of Christ and 20 continues on showing the resurrection (the FIRST resurrection) that happens AT Christ's appearing.
It could not BE any easier friends!!
As for the REST OF THE DEAD - they did not COME TO LIFE until AFTER the 1000 years was completed.
Hint for GE -- 1000 years is real as well as Christ as well as the world as well as Satan as well as the armies of heavens as well as the birds of Rev 19 as well as ...
I think you get the picture.
In John 5 Christ tells us of TWO resurrections - one of the righteous and one of the wicked. In Rev 19-20 we see the second coming - the appearing of Christ and the FIRST of those TWO resurrections in 20:4-5. Impossible to miss. The TWO resurrections are shown to be separated by 1000 years. Paul said "The dead IN CHRIST rise FIRST". Both John and Paul seem to agree here! Over THESE the SECOND death has NO power!
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan said:
GE:
You say it if John uses the words, "The DEAD in Christ that rise FIRST". It is not John, but Paul, in completely another context - a context I have previously explained; but which you then and still have scorned.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Wrong as usual sir.
John 5 DOES speak of TWO resurrections and Rev 20 John shows us the FIRST of those TWO resurrections.
Impossible to miss.
Incredibly easy for any objective reader to get.
However I leave it as an exercise for the reader to see which of the TWO resurrections in John 5 is being named as the FIRST resurrection by John in Rev 20:4-5.
Hint: "pretending to get lost here is not going to be believable". This part is wayyy too easy!
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
I did not say John said it - I said that john's language is consistent with the other NT writers and quoting THEM I illustrate with "THE DEAD in Christ rise FIRST" from 1Thess 4 (quoted a dozen times so far) -- very EASY for all objective readers to get.
No possibility of pretending to be confused here sir.
BTW - when you try to allegorize and symbolize away the clear statements of a text of scripture - that is called eisegesis. Pure story telling. It finds no basis in fact and has no substantive support among Bible students.
I have to believe that deep down -- you know better.
in Christ,
Bob
Your reliance on the overall feeling is not supported.
You must specify who are participating in the Millennium as you read verse 20:4.
If you read Daniel 12:2 it doesn't distinguish between the Believers and Unbelievers.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Zech 14
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
If you read Rev 7, you would have found 144K plus multitude of people of all nations coming out of the Tribulation, then you read 20:4 which says the Judges plus the Martyrs will participate in the first resurrection.
The rest of the Dead will not live again. (v 5)
Are the average believers included there ? Are they martyrs?
Yes, this event will be an enormously surprising one and the whole Bible has been anticipating this time. Is it tarnished by the partial Resurrection?
Those governing body of the Millennium is more than enough to surprise all the people on the earth.
You should look at the Bible, and read why the Book of Life is open only in 20:12-15
Then what is the difference of the Better Resurrection in Heb 11:35? None of you could explain about it so far.
You must specify who are participating in the Millennium as you read verse 20:4.
If you read Daniel 12:2 it doesn't distinguish between the Believers and Unbelievers.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Zech 14
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
If you read Rev 7, you would have found 144K plus multitude of people of all nations coming out of the Tribulation, then you read 20:4 which says the Judges plus the Martyrs will participate in the first resurrection.
The rest of the Dead will not live again. (v 5)
Are the average believers included there ? Are they martyrs?
Yes, this event will be an enormously surprising one and the whole Bible has been anticipating this time. Is it tarnished by the partial Resurrection?
Those governing body of the Millennium is more than enough to surprise all the people on the earth.
You should look at the Bible, and read why the Book of Life is open only in 20:12-15
Then what is the difference of the Better Resurrection in Heb 11:35? None of you could explain about it so far.
BobRyan:
"It is left as a simple exercise for the reader to - read over Rev 19 and 20 and SEE the First Resurrection placed in 20 NOT 19. And SEE that 19 describes the appearing of Christ and 20 continues on showing the resurrection (the FIRST resurrection) that happens AT Christ's appearing."
GE:
Denied!
It is left as a simple exercise for the reader - to read over Rev 20 and SEE - The First Resurrection is placed in there, verses 1 to 6. And SEE that 20 from verse 7 on, describes the events at and after the appearing of Christ, while verses 4 to 6 showed the resurrection (the FIRST resurrection) that happens DURING the 'thousand years'.
In fact, 20:5b: "THIS IS the first resurrection", summarising verses 1 to 5a.
"It is left as a simple exercise for the reader to - read over Rev 19 and 20 and SEE the First Resurrection placed in 20 NOT 19. And SEE that 19 describes the appearing of Christ and 20 continues on showing the resurrection (the FIRST resurrection) that happens AT Christ's appearing."
GE:
Denied!
It is left as a simple exercise for the reader - to read over Rev 20 and SEE - The First Resurrection is placed in there, verses 1 to 6. And SEE that 20 from verse 7 on, describes the events at and after the appearing of Christ, while verses 4 to 6 showed the resurrection (the FIRST resurrection) that happens DURING the 'thousand years'.
In fact, 20:5b: "THIS IS the first resurrection", summarising verses 1 to 5a.
BobRyan said:
GE:
You quote from John 5 the words, the name, 'First Resurrection'! You show it in letters on paper. Not one has denied the implication of two resurrections - only some - you - have denied that these are two KINDS of resurrections, not two chronologically SEQUENTIAL resurrections.
BobRyan:
"... I leave it as an exercise for the reader to see which of the TWO resurrections in John 5 is being named as the FIRST resurrection by John in Rev 20:4-5."
GE:
Now see what I view as the abuse of Scripture!
"... I leave it as an exercise for the reader to see which of the TWO resurrections in John 5 is being named as the FIRST resurrection by John in Rev 20:4-5."
GE:
Now see what I view as the abuse of Scripture!
In fact, John 5 does describe 'the First Resurrection' of Rv.20, not in the way though BobRyan wants it.
It says in John 5, "The hour is coming, and now is, when the (spiritually) dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: And they that hear shall live."
This is what I have all the way maintained is 'the first resurrection' of Rv20, and that, which BobRyan has all the way denied.
"For as the Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom He will." "Over them the second death has no power."
By the way, I read of this resurrection only in John 5.
It says in John 5, "The hour is coming, and now is, when the (spiritually) dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: And they that hear shall live."
This is what I have all the way maintained is 'the first resurrection' of Rv20, and that, which BobRyan has all the way denied.
"For as the Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom He will." "Over them the second death has no power."
By the way, I read of this resurrection only in John 5.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Inserting the word (spiritually) into John 5 as you have admitted to doing above is good eisegesis - good storytelling -- but it is not scripture... it is not Bible study.
And now for some "inconvenient facts" in John 5 -- Christ speaks of the future time that is coming when ALL who are in the grave shall come to life for it takes a miracle of God to raise them EVEN if they are the wicked coming up for the 2nd death at the end of the 1000 years -- STILL it is true that only God can raise them back to life.
IF the tortured eisegesis that GE proposes were used here to suppose that the spiritually dead are being born again - raised to life then thrown into the fire of hell - the second death we would indeed have "another gospel" and in fact - not even a very good "story"
And now for some "inconvenient facts" in John 5 -- Christ speaks of the future time that is coming when ALL who are in the grave shall come to life for it takes a miracle of God to raise them EVEN if they are the wicked coming up for the 2nd death at the end of the 1000 years -- STILL it is true that only God can raise them back to life.
IF the tortured eisegesis that GE proposes were used here to suppose that the spiritually dead are being born again - raised to life then thrown into the fire of hell - the second death we would indeed have "another gospel" and in fact - not even a very good "story"
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BobRyan said:
GE:
I have banned before 'name-calling'. This time they can bann me for ever, but I'm telling you in your face you are a liar! You are a liar for saying this:"IF the tortured eisegesis that GE proposes were used here to suppose that the spiritually dead are being born again - raised to life then thrown into the fire of hell ...", in particular the last phrase, "... then thrown into the fire of hell ...".
And again, where do you read of the two resurrections you talked of in John 5?
I must say, I know quite a few Seventh Day Adventist - since having been one myself during my ignorant youth - but no one ever matched you in your arrogance!
Hi BR and GE,
John 5 doesn't talk about the Time Sequence.
Now I will give you another job to think about:
Mt 20:
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen
What does that mean?
There will be the order of Resurrection.
Now you may argue based on 1 Thess 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep
This means that there will be the Believers from the dead but preceding the alive, e.g. the governing body of the Millennium ( 144k) plus Martyrs, which are explicitly mentioned in Rev 20:4.
When you hear the word " the rest of the Dead" what do you feel about it?
Doesn't it sound that it excludes certain group of people?
We must admit that "the Rest of the Dead" after mentioning the 2 groups in verse 2 is a strongly exclusive expression.
You must remember this, there was no verse by verse distinction when John wrote Rev. So, 20:5 is just a extension of 20:4, which specifies the JUdges and the Martyrs, and the rest of the Dead shall not live again for a thousand years.
What about the plain believers who never martyred? They will not live again until 1000 years are finished ( verse 5)
This is why people pursued the better Resurrection ( Heb 11:35)
The latter standing on the earth when Jesus comes again will participate in the Kingdom earlier than the earlier believers who didn't martyr but lived plain lives. That's what Jesus was talking about in Mt 20.
Could you not understand yet? Go to bed, GE:laugh:
John 5 doesn't talk about the Time Sequence.
Now I will give you another job to think about:
Mt 20:
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen
What does that mean?
There will be the order of Resurrection.
Now you may argue based on 1 Thess 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep
This means that there will be the Believers from the dead but preceding the alive, e.g. the governing body of the Millennium ( 144k) plus Martyrs, which are explicitly mentioned in Rev 20:4.
When you hear the word " the rest of the Dead" what do you feel about it?
Doesn't it sound that it excludes certain group of people?
We must admit that "the Rest of the Dead" after mentioning the 2 groups in verse 2 is a strongly exclusive expression.
You must remember this, there was no verse by verse distinction when John wrote Rev. So, 20:5 is just a extension of 20:4, which specifies the JUdges and the Martyrs, and the rest of the Dead shall not live again for a thousand years.
What about the plain believers who never martyred? They will not live again until 1000 years are finished ( verse 5)
This is why people pursued the better Resurrection ( Heb 11:35)
The latter standing on the earth when Jesus comes again will participate in the Kingdom earlier than the earlier believers who didn't martyr but lived plain lives. That's what Jesus was talking about in Mt 20.
Could you not understand yet? Go to bed, GE:laugh:
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Eliyahu said:
True it does not tell us that the two resurrections are separated by 1000 years. To see John add that bit of information we need to read Rev 20.
In John 12:32 Christ said He draws "ALL" mankind unto Him -- there we have "the many called" but not all would be saved.
The argument is that starting with Gen 3 all the saints are said to be at war with the wicked and in Dan 7 all saints appear to be persecuted - and waiting for the 2nd coming.
So when Paul tells us that the "DEAD in Christ shall rise FIRST" -- and THEN WE who "are ALIVE and remain" shall bve caught up TOGETHER with them in the air - we see that they are raised up before the living saints go to heaven.
And thus in Rev 20 the righteous are once again seen to "Rise FIRST" in the "First Resurrection" not only FIRST - before those who are alive and remain - are taken to heaven but also FIRST before the 1000 years and before the 2nd resurrection -
Clearly it is BEFORE the 1000 years that the sants are going to heaven -- so if we DELAY the "DEAD in Christ" or some portion of them until AFTER the 1000 years than "We who are alive and remain until the return of Christ WOULD PRECEED them into heaven"! And Paul tells us - such is NOT the case not even with the saints who died in his day.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
To argue that the
"SECOND DEATH DOES have power over the saints - raised after the 1000 years" is to miss the point entirely.
To argue that the "DEAD in Christ" of Paul's day "DO NOT preceed those who are ALIVE and remain" until the appearing of Christ is to miss the point of 1Thess 4 entirely.
You simply can not make a supposition that violates both clear statements of the text.
You can not take supposition as a valid counter-position to the Dan 7 teaching that ALL the saints are viewed by heaven as being under persecution. In 2Thess 1 Paul say that "it is only right" that Christ just deal out fire and retribution to those who are persecuting "you".
in Christ,
Bob