The "FIRST resurrection" - THE Focus of the NT saints?

[Eliyahu]

To argue that the
"SECOND DEATH DOES have power over the saints - raised after the 1000 years" is to miss the point entirely.

To argue that the "DEAD in Christ" of Paul's day "DO NOT preceed those who are ALIVE and remain" until the appearing of Christ is to miss the point of 1Thess 4 entirely.

You simply can not make a supposition that violates both clear statements of the text.

You can not take supposition as a valid counter-position to the Dan 7 teaching that ALL the saints are viewed by heaven as being under persecution. In 2Thess 1 Paul say that "it is only right" that Christ just deal out fire and retribution to those who are persecuting "you".

in Christ,

Bob

You repeat the same arguments:

1) John 12:32 doesn't tell the Time Sequence - He will draw all men, thru first resurrection and thru the second resurrection.

2) You repeat 1 Thess 4:15 - I told you many times.
Those Dead in Christ will precede the Alive, and they are Judges and martyrs mentioned in Rev 20:4 - There is nothing contradictory between my statement and 1 Thess 4:15.
That is the only verse that you know, and therefore you repeat it all the time, but it doesn't say All the Dead in Christ will precede the Alive.
In your logic, I know what you are saying, if there are left unresurrected among the Dead in Christ, then those left behind among the Dead in Christ will be resurrected after the Alive participate in the Kingdom. However, 1 Thess 4:15 doesn't tell us all the Dead in Christ.
Then you may point out why Paul indicated that event in time sequence?
The start of the Resurrection is a great event which will shock the whole world, and the resurrection of the rest of the people will not be surprising so much as the first did, and it will be worse resurrection than the first. Therefore it is the most, extremely important event that the Saints and Martyrs are resurrected and come with Christ.

3. I told you about Zech 14, about the coming of Jesus Christ onto Mount of Olive. It means that the Kingdom will be established on this earth, not in the heaven.

 

[Eliyahu]

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

When will this happen?

Will the people who pierced Jesus be able to see Jesus when He comes for the second time? or at the end of 1000 years?

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus said "you will not see me again until you say - blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord". As you point out in Rev 1:7 there is some indication of something "special" that God will do just prior to the second coming for those Jewish leaders who lived at the time of Christ and who rejected Him.

But this special event for that small group of people is not the "Focus of the NT saints" -- rather the focus according to Peter, Paul, John etc is the "Return of Christ" the "Appearing of Christ" and the associated resurrection of the "dead in Christ".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You repeat the same arguments:

1) John 12:32 doesn't tell the Time Sequence - He will draw all men, thru first resurrection and thru the second resurrection.

This has nothing to do with the resurrection -- it is the response to your question about "many called few chosen".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You repeat the same arguments:

1) John 12:32 doesn't tell the Time Sequence - He will draw all men, thru first resurrection and thru the second resurrection.

2) You repeat 1 Thess 4:15 - I told you many times.
Those Dead in Christ will precede the Alive, and they are Judges and martyrs mentioned in Rev 20:4 - There is nothing contradictory between my statement and 1 Thess 4:15.

in 1Thess 4 Paul is speaking to the saints of his day about the loss of loved once in his day. He says THESE are going to be raised at the appearing of Christ "the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST".

Your post above appears to admit that these are the same as those in Rev 20:4 -- once you do that my point is perfectly made!

the dilemma is all resolved.

That is the only verse that you know, and therefore you repeat it all the time, but it doesn't say All the Dead in Christ will precede the Alive.

Please show in the 1Thess 4 text that Paul says something like "SOME of the DEAD in Christ will be raised at the last trump -- when Christ brings with Him those who have fallen asleep... the REST of the dead in Christ will be raised at another time... Hopefully some of those that you know will be raised FIRST and preceed the LIVING to heaven"..

If such language - evidence support can be found in 1Thess 4 you have made your case.


If not - my point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

GE:

You may not, 'call' it a 'second resurrection'. "That is their resurrection" - the 'surrection' of the ungodly. The Greek has no word 'again'. "They lived-'edzehsan' not until were (or 'was) finished the (one) thousand years", is all it says.

Yes, the resurrection of the 'rest' of the ungodly, in fact occurs after the 'first resurrection' - and after the whole period during which 'first resurrection' had been possible - the era of grace, this age.

Still, if you are suggesting the first resurrection is the new birth of the righteous, then is the resurrection of the wicked a new birth for them? That's what Bob was pointing out by speaking of people being "born again" to be thrown into Hell. If you say that this is a bodily or "spirit" resurrection to judgment, then why would that one be a literal resurrection, while the other resurrection (of the righteous) is only their new birth at conversion to Christ?

 

[Eliyahu]

in 1Thess 4 Paul is speaking to the saints of his day about the loss of loved once in his day. He says THESE are going to be raised at the appearing of Christ "the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST".

Your post above appears to admit that these are the same as those in Rev 20:4 -- once you do that my point is perfectly made!

the dilemma is all resolved.

Re 20:4-5 already limits and denies " all the dead"

Please show in the 1Thess 4 text that Paul says something like "SOME of the DEAD in Christ will be raised at the last trump -- when Christ brings with Him those who have fallen asleep... the REST of the dead in Christ will be raised at another time... Hopefully some of those that you know will be raised FIRST and preceed the LIVING to heaven"..

If such language - evidence support can be found in 1Thess 4 you have made your case.


If not - my point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

Please show me where in 1 Thess 4 Bible shows " ALL" the Dead will be raised first!
Even 1 Cor 15:23 says simply " they that are Christ's at His coming" then do you think it covered all the believers?
Why doesn't it say " they that are Christ's" without "at His coming?"

You couldn't answer my question on Heb 11:35 and Matt 20 ( The first become last, the last first.)

 

[BobRyan]

Re 20:4-5 already limits and denies " all the dead"

Not "all the dead" just those "over whom the second death has no power"

As Paul points out in 1Thess 4 it is just the "Dead in Christ"

As John points out in Rev 20:4-5 this is just the saints persecuted and redeemed -- as Daniel 7 points out -- it is the persecuted saints.

Please show me where in 1 Thess 4 Bible shows " ALL" the Dead will be raised first!
Even 1 Cor 15:23 says simply " they that are Christ's at His coming" then do you think it covered all the believers?

Yes because there is no other way into heaven.

Christ alone

"The ONE Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9

Why doesn't it say " they that are Christ's" without "at His coming?"

The context is those who died 2000 years ago showing that ALL the saints -- even those that died 2000 years ago are included.

You couldn't answer my question on Heb 11:35 and Matt 20 ( The first become last, the last first.)

That said nothing about a resurrection and nothing about making the saints in the first general resurrection serve the wicked raised in the "general" 2nd resurrection.

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation 20
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

The sequence is clear. In Rev 19 you have the 2nd coming – literal – visible and world wide. The saints are taken at that event (as we saw in 1Thess 4) and the “rest are killed by the sword that came from His mouth” Rev 19.

Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls[/b] of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and [b]they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

And they lived (kai ezhsan).
First aorist active indicative of zaw. If the ingressive aorist, it means "came to life" or "lived again" as in 2:8 and so as to verse 20:5.
http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020&verse=004


John S. C. Abbott and Jacob Abbott
http://www.studylight.org/com/ain/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020
Rev 20 Verse 4
Beheaded for the witness of Jesus; for the witness which they bore. And they lived; were restored to life. This language has been commonly understood to mean that the martyrs thus raised were to appear upon the earth again; but the place which was to be the scene of their new existence, does not seem to be indicated.

John Gill
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020&verse=004
Rev 20:4
their souls lived in their bodies, their bodies being raised again, and reunited to their souls, their whole persons lived; or the souls of them that were beheaded lived; that is, their bodies lived again, the soul being sometimes put for the body, (Psalms 16:10) and this is called the first resurrection in the next verse:

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020
Rev 20:4
But "souls" expresses their disembodied state (compare Re 6:9) as John saw them at first; "and they lived" implies their coming to life in the body again, so as to be visible, as the phrase, Re 20:5, "this is the first resurrection," proves; for as surely as "the rest of the dead lived not (again) until," &c., refers to the bodily general resurrection, so must the first resurrection refer to the body. This also accords with 1Co 15:23, "They that are Christ's at His coming." Compare Ps 49:11-15. From Re 6:9,

Matthew Henry
Rev 20:4
Verses 4-6 Here is an account of the reign of the saints, for the same space of time as Satan is bound. Those who suffer with Christ, shall reign with him in his spiritual and heavenly kingdom, in conformity to him in his wisdom, righteousness, and holiness: this is called the first resurrection, with which none but those who serve Christ, and suffer for him, shall be favoured. The happiness of these servants of God is declared. None can be blessed but those that are holy; and all that are holy shall be blessed. We know something thing of what the first death is, and it is very awful; but we know not what this second death is. It must be much more dreadful; it is the death of the soul, eternal separation from God. May we never know what it is: those who have been made partakers of a spiritual resurrection, are saved from the power of the second death. We may expect that a thousand years will follow the destruction of the antichristian, idolatrous, persecuting powers

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.[/quote]

 

[Eliyahu]

BR,

I read thru your posts.
I found no problem with the exegeses of various people.
As for the "that are Christ's at His Coming" ( 1 Cor 15:23) we may not find any agreement, as you like to insert "ALL" but I read as it is without "ALL"

But what we can be sure is that Re 20:5 " Ezesan" means " Resurrect" as your exegeses indicate. One exegesis already mentioned that it appears only 2 times, once at Re 2:8.

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Apparently it is used for the resurrection of Jesus.

The verb Ezesan is very simple, Aorist, Active, 3rd, plural.

When people say A group and B group, and the rest of the dead will not be resurrected again until 1000 years are finished,
then we must look into the elements of the total groups of the dead.

Are the whole dead people only A group and B group? You must say yes or No here, first before we go further.
That is very much exclusive expression which we must notice.

When will the Great Judgment take place? between Re 20:4 and 20:5?
If all the believers are resurrected, then only the unbelievers will be left for the judgment in Re 20: 12-15

Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the Lake of Fire. ( v 15)

What you are saying is that there will be nobody among the resurrected who are written in the Book of Life. Then why is it necessary for the Book to be opened as all the resurrected are to be thrown into the Lake of Fire?

You have encountered 2 problems in Re 20, one in v 5 and the other in v 15.

Now as for the second coming, do you agree that the Kingdom of New Millennium will be established on this Earth, not in the Heaven? Otherwise you will have many problems. think about it, Bob.

 

[BobRyan]

Question – WHO are the saints of Rev 20:1-5 who participate in the general resurrection of the saints?

1Thess 4: - the Dead in Christ rise FIRST
Rev 20:4-5 The “Holy And Blessed” raised in the “FIRST resurrection” over these 2nd death has NO p;ower.
1Peter 1:6-13 – this resurrection is THE focus of the entire NT church

#1. The souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony.
#2. those who of those who died for Word of God
#3. AND Those who had not worship the beast or his image
#4. AND Those who had not received the mark of the beast

This “persecuted saints” image the view of ALL saints since the fall of Adam?

Gen 3 – “I will put war and hatred between the seed of the woman and the seed of the snake”
Heb 11:4-40 – All the saints in all ages – persecuted and died without receiving the promise
Rev 6:9-11 Souls under the altar and their persecuted brethren on earth – dying
1 Peter 4; 12-14 – After you have endured persecution – then heaven.
Matt 24 – you will be persecuted – he who endures to the end – saved.
Dan 7:17-27 Saints persecuted in all ages until second coming ends it. No coasting

 

[BobRyan]

As for the "that are Christ's at His Coming" ( 1 Cor 15:23) we may not find any agreement, as you like to insert "ALL" but I read as it is without "ALL"

The problem with that is that you would need the sense in 1Cor 15 that Paul is NOT addressing a future resurrection truth for all saints but rather is making the argument "I have some good news in the case of some of the saint. For in their case the resurrection evetn will go like this.."

So I ask you to read this part of 1Cor 15 carefully and tell me -- is Paul making the argument "here is what is applicable to some of the saints"?


1Cor 15
48 As is [b]the earthy, so also are those who are earthy[/b]; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also[/b] bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that [b]flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; [b]we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and [b]this mortal[/b] will have put on immortality, [/b]then will come about the saying that is written, "" [b]DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55 "" O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?''
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57 but thanks be to [/b]God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Alas - I find myself sending this message from India once again and the hour is late. I will post more later in the day)

 

[Eliyahu]

The problem with that is that you would need the sense in 1Cor 15 that Paul is NOT addressing a future resurrection truth for all saints but rather is making the argument "I have some good news in the case of some of the saint. For in their case the resurrection evetn will go like this.."

So I ask you to read this part of 1Cor 15 carefully and tell me -- is Paul making the argument "here is what is applicable to some of the saints"?


1Cor 15
48 As is [b]the earthy, so also are those who are earthy[/b]; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also[/b] bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that [b]flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; [b]we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and [b]this mortal[/b] will have put on immortality, [/b]then will come about the saying that is written, "" [b]DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55 "" O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?''
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57 but thanks be to [/b]God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Alas - I find myself sending this message from India once again and the hour is late. I will post more later in the day)

None of your Bible reference supports you further.
1 Cor 15:23 is more likely supporting the partial resurrection because
"they that are Christ's at His coming " Why doesn't it say simply " They that are Christ's" ? Isn't it because there are the Christ's but who are not coming along with Him?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Hi BR and GE,

John 5 doesn't talk about the Time Sequence.

Now I will give you another job to think about:

Mt 20:
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen


What does that mean?

There will be the order of Resurrection.

Now you may argue based on 1 Thess 4:15

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep

This means that there will be the Believers from the dead but preceding the alive, e.g. the governing body of the Millennium ( 144k) plus Martyrs, which are explicitly mentioned in Rev 20:4.

When you hear the word " the rest of the Dead" what do you feel about it?
Doesn't it sound that it excludes certain group of people?

We must admit that "the Rest of the Dead" after mentioning the 2 groups in verse 2 is a strongly exclusive expression.

You must remember this, there was no verse by verse distinction when John wrote Rev. So, 20:5 is just a extension of 20:4, which specifies the JUdges and the Martyrs, and the rest of the Dead shall not live again for a thousand years.

What about the plain believers who never martyred? They will not live again until 1000 years are finished ( verse 5)

This is why people pursued the better Resurrection ( Heb 11:35)

The latter standing on the earth when Jesus comes again will participate in the Kingdom earlier than the earlier believers who didn't martyr but lived plain lives. That's what Jesus was talking about in Mt 20.

Could you not understand yet? Go to bed, GE:laugh:

GE:

You surpass everyone in confusion and arrogance.
To demolish this nonsense of yours would be the easiest thing in the world; but is not worthy one sentence to the purpose.

Nevertheless, you just may be sincere, and therefore I'll try to help you ... But I'll disconnect and prepare my answer off-line, because in SA internet time costs a lot. God willing then, I'll return. (I'm happy they didn't ban me, and am grateful. I feel dirty because of my viscious response to BobRyan. Sorry Bob, forgive me please?

 

[Eliyahu]

GE:

You surpass everyone in confusion and arrogance.
To demolish this nonsense of yours would be the easiest thing in the world; but is not worthy one sentence to the purpose.

Were you upset because I told you to go to bed? By SA time it was time to sleep then. I know you cannot demolish my belief as mine is based on the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

None of your Bible reference supports you further.
1 Cor 15:23 is more likely supporting the partial resurrection because
"they that are Christ's at His coming " Why doesn't it say simply " They that are Christ's" ? Isn't it because there are the Christ's but who are not coming along with Him?

#1. I gave 1Cor 15:48-57 showing that the scope of the chapter is for ALL the saints and can not possibly be limited to "some isolated group of saints". You did not respond to those texts and SHOW that they CAN be reworked to anything other than all saints.

#2. Even the context for vs 23 shows that the context is ALL saints who have "Fallen Asleep in Christ" see vs 18, AS in Adam ALL die so in Christ ALL will be made alive. Is there ANY reason to see this REDUCED to something LESS than all saints made alive in Christ????.

There is no possibility of revising this down to "just a group of saints at the end of time".

1Cor 15
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.[/b]

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits[/b], after that those who are Christ's [b]at His coming[/b],
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, [b]when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The [b]last enemy that will be abolished is death.

It would take a huge amount of effort to try to work vs 23 down in scope as opposed to vs 22 being truly ALL who are made alive in Christ!! Why go through all that work trying to change it? What beliefs are forcing you to rework the chapter??

 

[BobRyan]

GE:

(I'm happy they didn't ban me, and am grateful. I feel dirty because of my viscious response to BobRyan. Sorry Bob, forgive me please?

No problem I forgive you sir.

My suggestion though is that you keep this issue of knowing what to say before God- in Col 4 God tells us to pray at all times "so that we might know how to respond to each person -- your words seasoned as it where with salt".

These debate boards make it easy to slip off the path of objective exchange of Bible study truth - and get into personnal attacks. My responses tend to be very direct and "analytical" when it comes to finding support or lack of it from the Bible which could make it very difficult for someone who is emotionally tied to whatever the topic is.

I have seen more than one person shoot off like a rocket when confronted with a frank review of the Bible support or lack thereof for a favorite POV, and I am praying about ways that I might find to lesson their risk of such a reaction.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

#1. I gave 1Cor 15:48-57 showing that the scope of the chapter is for ALL the saints and can not possibly be limited to "some isolated group of saints". You did not respond to those texts and SHOW that they CAN be reworked to anything other than all saints.

#2. Even the context for vs 23 shows that the context is ALL saints who have "Fallen Asleep in Christ" see vs 18, AS in Adam ALL die so in Christ ALL will be made alive. Is there ANY reason to see this REDUCED to something LESS than all saints made alive in Christ????.

There is no possibility of revising this down to "just a group of saints at the end of time".

1Cor 15
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.[/b]

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits[/b], after that those who are Christ's [b]at His coming[/b],
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, [b]when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The [b]last enemy that will be abolished is death.

It would take a huge amount of effort to try to work vs 23 down in scope as opposed to vs 22 being truly ALL who are made alive in Christ!! Why go through all that work trying to change it? What beliefs are forcing you to rework the chapter??

The reason why we see ALL in v 22 and 51 is because we will eventually all be resurrected as we read v 24; "the end comes" which include the other believers plus unbelievers. It is not difficult.

 

[BobRyan]

Is it your opinion that Paul is speaking to SEVERAL resurrections
(to get aLL covered regarding the righteous) but only identifying ONE?

Is that because your prior position "needs" that or did you read something in the text that states it??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Is it your opinion that Paul is speaking to SEVERAL resurrections
(to get aLL covered regarding the righteous) but only identifying ONE?

Is that because your prior position "needs" that or did you read something in the text that states it??

in Christ,

Bob

1 Cor 15 already presuppose the several stage of the resurrection. Paul doesn't say all the Believers' resurrection at the same time, but mentions that there is an order there.