BobRyan said:
GE:
Apply this, as the many times of before of your empty verbosity, to yourself. That will be impossible! Only get emotional, and let your conscience (if you have any) for once play a part!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The "FIRST resurrection" - THE Focus of the NT saints?
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
GE:
Apply this, as the many times of before of your empty verbosity, to yourself. That will be impossible! Only get emotional, and let your conscience (if you have any) for once play a part!
And I don't hesitate to claim I am a 'better translator' in this instance. If you can refute my better translation, try! Let us just for one time see, you can put your money where your mouth is, big boy! And bring along the scholars on your side, I would like to meet them.
With that knee-jerk of mine I posted my editing - It took me scarcely any time to notice the loophole you would dive for. I bashed not the NAS; I bashed you.
All this insanity for what? You, for an re-investigating judgment; I for a New Heaven and a New Earth when Christ shall come again, and sin and death and the devil for ever extinguished.
BobRyan said:
GE:
Look at the lot BobRyan says, like almost each time he makes a statement!
I am impatient! I can't wait! (edited!)
Gerhard Ebersoehn correcting Gerhard Ebersoehn:
Afterthought, while calmer, brought back to my mind, this, my statement, in this thread a few pages ago:
"Again, the original says, "they lived not IN THE END (Dative), they lived not THE Thousand Years (Nominative) THIS the First Resurrection (Nominative)"."
The mistake is obvious, but not against the trend of the passage. That's why I mistakenly took the Verb, 'telesthehi', Aorist Subjunctive (Passive Active) for the Noun, 'teleutehi', Dative. Apologies!
Afterthought, while calmer, brought back to my mind, this, my statement, in this thread a few pages ago:
"Again, the original says, "they lived not IN THE END (Dative), they lived not THE Thousand Years (Nominative) THIS the First Resurrection (Nominative)"."
The mistake is obvious, but not against the trend of the passage. That's why I mistakenly took the Verb, 'telesthehi', Aorist Subjunctive (Passive Active) for the Noun, 'teleutehi', Dative. Apologies!
Check up the current thread how it feels to change one's POV for further discussion of the 'First Resurrection'.
Pasted from said thread:
I don't believe any '7-year tribulation' period, for exactly the reason you say, "scripture interpreting scripture".
I believe all (true) Christianity should be and is and had been co-suffering with and co-sufferers of, Jesus Christ. 'Suffering' is as much a 'sign' of genuineness of a Christian as are love and faith. No persecution or suffering through persecution is or should be exceptional for the believer or for the Church. It should be part of our make-up, in fact one of the indispensible first elements of our constitution. Therefore, for me in any case, 'the first resurrection' does not realise apart from the witness for Christ; the 'thousand years they reigned with Christ' never exempts witness through suffering and suffering through witness.
Did you know, only four 'things' are in the NT 'classified' as being an 'endeiksis' - an 'intrinsical sign' - the above three and Jesus Christ? Many things can be 'signs' - not of the same 'sign-ificance' as an 'endeiksis'; they may be described with the word 'sehmeia' -'germ', 'seed', like baptism is called a 'sign'. It does not MAKE one a Christian; whereas the four 'endeiksies' are what MAKE of one a Christian: Jesus Christ first, love, faith, and ... suffering!
Therefore, something else, as Isaiah should not out of context be applied to Rv20, just so should Daniel 7 or wherever the idea of some 7-years persecution be got from, not be misapplied to Revelation anywhere. I understand it just like you do!
I don't believe any '7-year tribulation' period, for exactly the reason you say, "scripture interpreting scripture".
I believe all (true) Christianity should be and is and had been co-suffering with and co-sufferers of, Jesus Christ. 'Suffering' is as much a 'sign' of genuineness of a Christian as are love and faith. No persecution or suffering through persecution is or should be exceptional for the believer or for the Church. It should be part of our make-up, in fact one of the indispensible first elements of our constitution. Therefore, for me in any case, 'the first resurrection' does not realise apart from the witness for Christ; the 'thousand years they reigned with Christ' never exempts witness through suffering and suffering through witness.
Did you know, only four 'things' are in the NT 'classified' as being an 'endeiksis' - an 'intrinsical sign' - the above three and Jesus Christ? Many things can be 'signs' - not of the same 'sign-ificance' as an 'endeiksis'; they may be described with the word 'sehmeia' -'germ', 'seed', like baptism is called a 'sign'. It does not MAKE one a Christian; whereas the four 'endeiksies' are what MAKE of one a Christian: Jesus Christ first, love, faith, and ... suffering!
Therefore, something else, as Isaiah should not out of context be applied to Rv20, just so should Daniel 7 or wherever the idea of some 7-years persecution be got from, not be misapplied to Revelation anywhere. I understand it just like you do!
I mentioned the significance of suffering for being one of the only four true signs of the life of Christian faith. Therefore, it must be deduced, that John in Rv20 saw, One: Christ reigned (Past Tense - not the-e-ere in the future), and Two: the saints, Three: “on thrones”, “ruling”, “with Him”, “thousand years”, the while he saw: Four: “the souls” – seeing their life, their lives - Five: “under the altar” of sacrifice – their offering, their suffering; their witness; their ‘martyrdom’.
Thus the saints ruled and reigned and witnessed the thousand years with Christ under suffering; or they never, reigned.
Their thrones were the crowns of their suffering "for the faith of Jesus". This is the realism, the reality, the truth of both the saints’ rule and witness of their ‘Thousand Year Reign With Christ’. It is our Age of Faith.
Of the four ‘endeiksies’ two are lasting and eternal; two “for a short while” and passing. Paul says (Scripture explaining Scripture, Steaver), “Now abideth faith, hope, love”. But, says he, “Love beareth all things; Love suffereth long; Love endureth all things; Love never faileth.” In this Scripture Christ is scarcely distinguishable from Love. If instead of the word, ‘love’, is read, ‘Christ’, the passage still makes perfect sense. Jesus Christ and Love are the two eternal of the four essential signs of the Kingdom of heaven. Faith will end, and suffering will end, and in the resurrected life won’t be needed, used or experienced. Jesus Christ will be the Finisher of our faith in the resurrection. He is the Author of our faith in the First Resurrection.
Therefore John speaks of the era in which suffering and faith, with Christ and love, ‘constitute’, or ‘make up’, the very ‘first essentials’ of Christian witness. He pictures the ‘Thousand Years’ of Christ’s and the saint’s “reign” and “rule” wherein suffering crowns the glory of the saints. They are under the altar of suffering witness – they carry the altar as were it the crown on their heads. “They reigned Thousand Years, this, the First Resurrection”. (Just the letters of the text itself!)
This –Rv20:1-5– is the earthly reign and rule therefore under the conditions of our human existence in this very day of persecution, as subjects of the Kingdom of Heaven, being “strangers and pilgrims on the earth” still, “desir(ing) a better country, even an heavenly wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God.” “For He hath prepared for them, a city”. The souls under the altar wait for that city patiently, believing, Rv14:12, suffering, Rv20:1-4. “I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write! Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth.” Saved, “are they that die in the Lord henceforth” - from the beginning of their reign with Christ the Thousand Years - their lives and souls “hidden in Christ in God”.
Thus the saints ruled and reigned and witnessed the thousand years with Christ under suffering; or they never, reigned.
Their thrones were the crowns of their suffering "for the faith of Jesus". This is the realism, the reality, the truth of both the saints’ rule and witness of their ‘Thousand Year Reign With Christ’. It is our Age of Faith.
Of the four ‘endeiksies’ two are lasting and eternal; two “for a short while” and passing. Paul says (Scripture explaining Scripture, Steaver), “Now abideth faith, hope, love”. But, says he, “Love beareth all things; Love suffereth long; Love endureth all things; Love never faileth.” In this Scripture Christ is scarcely distinguishable from Love. If instead of the word, ‘love’, is read, ‘Christ’, the passage still makes perfect sense. Jesus Christ and Love are the two eternal of the four essential signs of the Kingdom of heaven. Faith will end, and suffering will end, and in the resurrected life won’t be needed, used or experienced. Jesus Christ will be the Finisher of our faith in the resurrection. He is the Author of our faith in the First Resurrection.
Therefore John speaks of the era in which suffering and faith, with Christ and love, ‘constitute’, or ‘make up’, the very ‘first essentials’ of Christian witness. He pictures the ‘Thousand Years’ of Christ’s and the saint’s “reign” and “rule” wherein suffering crowns the glory of the saints. They are under the altar of suffering witness – they carry the altar as were it the crown on their heads. “They reigned Thousand Years, this, the First Resurrection”. (Just the letters of the text itself!)
This –Rv20:1-5– is the earthly reign and rule therefore under the conditions of our human existence in this very day of persecution, as subjects of the Kingdom of Heaven, being “strangers and pilgrims on the earth” still, “desir(ing) a better country, even an heavenly wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God.” “For He hath prepared for them, a city”. The souls under the altar wait for that city patiently, believing, Rv14:12, suffering, Rv20:1-4. “I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write! Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth.” Saved, “are they that die in the Lord henceforth” - from the beginning of their reign with Christ the Thousand Years - their lives and souls “hidden in Christ in God”.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
John Gill on Rev 20:4 "The Persecuted Saints"
(Already posted here)
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of
Jesus, and for the word of God:
these, with the persons described in the next clause, are they who will sit on thrones, during the thousand years of Satan's being bound, and will have judgment given them; even such who have bore witness to the truth of Jesus being the Son of God, the true Messiah, and the only Saviour of sinners, and to him as the essential Word of God, or to the written word of God, the whole Gospel, all the truths and doctrines of it; and who have been beheaded for bearing such a testimony, as John the Baptist was, the first of the witnesses of Jesus: and since this kind of punishment was a Roman one, it seems particularly to point at such persons who suffered under the Roman Pagan emperors, and to design the same souls said to be under the altar, and to cry for vengeance, (Revelation 6:9) .
…
And which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither
had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,
see (Revelation 13:1,4,14-16) . This describes such who shall have made no profession of the Popish religion, nor have supported it in any way; who shall not have joined in the idolatry of the Romish antichrist, but shall have protested against it, and departed from it, and shall have adhered to Christ, and to the true worship of God; see (Revelation 14:1) (15:2) . And so this, with the preceding character, includes all the saints that lived under Rome Pagan, and Rome Papal, to the destruction of antichrist, and the setting up of Christ's kingdom; not that these martyrs and confessors, or even all the saints of their times, are the only persons that shall share in the glory and happiness of the thousand years' reign of Christ, and binding of Satan; for all the saints will come with Christ, and all the dead in Christ will rise first, or be partakers of the first resurrection; and all that are redeemed by his blood, of whatsoever nation, or in whatsoever age of the world they have lived, even from the beginning of it, shall be kings and priests, and reign with him on earth, (Zechariah 14:5) (1 Thessalonians 3:13) (4:14,16) (Revelation 5:9,10) though John only takes notice of these, because the design of this book, and of the visions shown to him, was only to give a prophetic history of the church, from his time, to the end of the world; and these particularly are observed to encourage the saints under sufferings for Christ:
John Gill – on Rev 20:4
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=re&chapter=020&verse=004&next=005&pre v=003
(Already posted here)
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of
Jesus, and for the word of God:
these, with the persons described in the next clause, are they who will sit on thrones, during the thousand years of Satan's being bound, and will have judgment given them; even such who have bore witness to the truth of Jesus being the Son of God, the true Messiah, and the only Saviour of sinners, and to him as the essential Word of God, or to the written word of God, the whole Gospel, all the truths and doctrines of it; and who have been beheaded for bearing such a testimony, as John the Baptist was, the first of the witnesses of Jesus: and since this kind of punishment was a Roman one, it seems particularly to point at such persons who suffered under the Roman Pagan emperors, and to design the same souls said to be under the altar, and to cry for vengeance, (Revelation 6:9) .
…
And which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither
had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,
see (Revelation 13:1,4,14-16) . This describes such who shall have made no profession of the Popish religion, nor have supported it in any way; who shall not have joined in the idolatry of the Romish antichrist, but shall have protested against it, and departed from it, and shall have adhered to Christ, and to the true worship of God; see (Revelation 14:1) (15:2) . And so this, with the preceding character, includes all the saints that lived under Rome Pagan, and Rome Papal, to the destruction of antichrist, and the setting up of Christ's kingdom; not that these martyrs and confessors, or even all the saints of their times, are the only persons that shall share in the glory and happiness of the thousand years' reign of Christ, and binding of Satan; for all the saints will come with Christ, and all the dead in Christ will rise first, or be partakers of the first resurrection; and all that are redeemed by his blood, of whatsoever nation, or in whatsoever age of the world they have lived, even from the beginning of it, shall be kings and priests, and reign with him on earth, (Zechariah 14:5) (1 Thessalonians 3:13) (4:14,16) (Revelation 5:9,10) though John only takes notice of these, because the design of this book, and of the visions shown to him, was only to give a prophetic history of the church, from his time, to the end of the world; and these particularly are observed to encourage the saints under sufferings for Christ:
John Gill – on Rev 20:4
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=re&chapter=020&verse=004&next=005&pre v=003
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
From post 112
More fun with Rev 20
Revelation 20
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time
Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, [b] and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark[/b] on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the [b]second death[/b] has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Key Points:
Question – WHO are the saints of Rev 20:1-5 who participate in the general resurrection of the saints?
1Thess 4: - the Dead in Christ rise FIRST
Rev 20:4-5 The “Holy And Blessed” raised in the “FIRST resurrection” over these 2nd death has NO p;ower.
1Peter 1:6-13 – this resurrection is THE focus of the entire NT church
#1. The souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony.
#2. those who of those who died for Word of God
#3. AND Those who had not worship the beast or his image
#4. AND Those who had not received the mark of the beast
This “persecuted saints” image the view of ALL saints since the fall of Adam?
Gen 3 – “I will put war and hatred between the seed of the woman and the seed of the snake”
Heb 11:4-40 – All the saints in all ages – persecuted and died without receiving the promise
Rev 6:9-11 Souls under the altar and their persecuted brethren on earth – dying
1 Peter 4; 12-14 – After you have endured persecution – then heaven.
Matt 24 – you will be persecuted – he who endures to the end – saved.
Dan 7:17-27 Saints persecuted in all ages until second coming ends it. No coasting
Accumulated Guilt; God views the end time persecuting power as doing this work for persecution for all of time.
Matt 23:35 ALL the blood of all saints from Abel to Zechariah charged to those who follow that example
Rev 18 – In her was found the blood of all saints – all that had been slain on earth from the days of Adam
2 Thess 2 – God will come and rescue you – dealing out vengeance to those who persecute you.
Rev 6 -- “Saints under the altar persecuted martyred – “Lord how Long will you wait”
Dan 7:17-27 – Single beast power wages war and overcomes saints until the end of time.
Dan 8:11-12 – Trample down the host
Rev 13:1-6 – Blaspheme – prevail against the saints.
.
More fun with Rev 20
Revelation 20
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time
Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, [b] and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark[/b] on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the [b]second death[/b] has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Key Points:
- Rev 19 and 20 are one story – about the return of Christ “I will come again and receive you unto Myself”.
Question – WHO are the saints of Rev 20:1-5 who participate in the general resurrection of the saints?
1Thess 4: - the Dead in Christ rise FIRST
Rev 20:4-5 The “Holy And Blessed” raised in the “FIRST resurrection” over these 2nd death has NO p;ower.
1Peter 1:6-13 – this resurrection is THE focus of the entire NT church
#1. The souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony.
#2. those who of those who died for Word of God
#3. AND Those who had not worship the beast or his image
#4. AND Those who had not received the mark of the beast
This “persecuted saints” image the view of ALL saints since the fall of Adam?
Gen 3 – “I will put war and hatred between the seed of the woman and the seed of the snake”
Heb 11:4-40 – All the saints in all ages – persecuted and died without receiving the promise
Rev 6:9-11 Souls under the altar and their persecuted brethren on earth – dying
1 Peter 4; 12-14 – After you have endured persecution – then heaven.
Matt 24 – you will be persecuted – he who endures to the end – saved.
Dan 7:17-27 Saints persecuted in all ages until second coming ends it. No coasting
Accumulated Guilt; God views the end time persecuting power as doing this work for persecution for all of time.
Matt 23:35 ALL the blood of all saints from Abel to Zechariah charged to those who follow that example
Rev 18 – In her was found the blood of all saints – all that had been slain on earth from the days of Adam
2 Thess 2 – God will come and rescue you – dealing out vengeance to those who persecute you.
Rev 6 -- “Saints under the altar persecuted martyred – “Lord how Long will you wait”
Dan 7:17-27 – Single beast power wages war and overcomes saints until the end of time.
Dan 8:11-12 – Trample down the host
Rev 13:1-6 – Blaspheme – prevail against the saints.
.
BobRyan said:
I haven't read the latest posts, but don't find any effective arguments to the partial resurrection.
If anyone disprove the Partial Resurrection, the followings must be properly answered:
1) Matthew 20:8
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. 11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, 12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. 13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Why does Jesus call the last group first? Why doesn't He call everyone at the same time?
2) 1 Cor 15:
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power
Why doesn't Paul simply say that the Believers first, then unbelievers later? Why there is an order for everyone? What is " Everyone's own order" ? Let' say you believe, and I believe, both will be resurrected, if both are resurrected at the same time, do you think the Bible need to state everyone's own order?
Are they that are Christ's at His coming all the Christ's?
If so, why doesn't Bible simply state that as " All they that are Christ's"?
3) Heb 11:35
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
What is the better resurrection and what is the worse resurrection if everyone is resurrected at the same time?
4) Rev 20:4-5
4 And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years: 5 the rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed. This [is] the first resurrection.
We notice here 3 groups : AA) Judgment Group, BB) Martyrs, CC) Saints during the Great Tribulations,
Are they all covering the Believers since the Creation of the World? What about Lot? Did he martyr?
The Judgment Group AA) may be 144K, the Matyrs BB) are the believers who died for the Words of God, then the 3rd group is apparently for the Last Days, and they can be either Martyrs during the Tribulation against the Anti-Christ (CC-A), or the survivors out of Great Tribulation ( CC-B),
but in case of the survivors, they don't need the resurrection and these people were mentioned in Rev 7.
9After these things I saw, and lo, a great crowd, which no one could number, out of every nation and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cry with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, These who are clothed with white robes, who are they, and whence came they? 14 And I said to him, My lord, *thou* knowest. And he said to me, These are they who come out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So, the Bible clearly states that Group AA ( Judges), BB( Martyrs), CC( Saints from GT), will participate in the First Resurrection, and the REST of the DEAD shall not be resurrected until 1000 years are finished. Actually I consider CC group only as CC-A because the survivors do not need the resurrection, and the word ezesan means the resurrection. the survivors will automatically participate in the Millennium.
Do you think Group AA, BB, CC cover all the Believers in Christ?
Which group do you think Lot in OT and the adulterous man in 1 Cor 5 will belong to ? Are they Judges? Are they Martyrs? They didn't suffer the Great Tribulation because they died much earlier.
Why does Bible say, the REST of The DEAD shall not be resurrected for a thousand years?
5) Moreover, Rev 20 tells us that the Book of Life is opened up only at the end of the 1000 years
Re 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled, and place was not found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [that] of life. And the dead were judged out of the things written in the books according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which [were] in it, and death and hades gave up the dead which [were] in them; and they were judged each according to their works: 14 and death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, [even] the lake of fire.15 And if any one was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. ( what if anyone is found written in the book of life?)
These must be answered if you are confident with Believers total resurrection at one time.
If you cannot present the arguments supporting One time resurrection of the Believers, try to think about the other way - Partial Resurrection of the Believers, then you would find no problem with the rest of the Bible.
If anyone disprove the Partial Resurrection, the followings must be properly answered:
1) Matthew 20:8
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. 11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, 12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. 13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Why does Jesus call the last group first? Why doesn't He call everyone at the same time?
2) 1 Cor 15:
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power
Why doesn't Paul simply say that the Believers first, then unbelievers later? Why there is an order for everyone? What is " Everyone's own order" ? Let' say you believe, and I believe, both will be resurrected, if both are resurrected at the same time, do you think the Bible need to state everyone's own order?
Are they that are Christ's at His coming all the Christ's?
If so, why doesn't Bible simply state that as " All they that are Christ's"?
3) Heb 11:35
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
What is the better resurrection and what is the worse resurrection if everyone is resurrected at the same time?
4) Rev 20:4-5
4 And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years: 5 the rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed. This [is] the first resurrection.
We notice here 3 groups : AA) Judgment Group, BB) Martyrs, CC) Saints during the Great Tribulations,
Are they all covering the Believers since the Creation of the World? What about Lot? Did he martyr?
The Judgment Group AA) may be 144K, the Matyrs BB) are the believers who died for the Words of God, then the 3rd group is apparently for the Last Days, and they can be either Martyrs during the Tribulation against the Anti-Christ (CC-A), or the survivors out of Great Tribulation ( CC-B),
but in case of the survivors, they don't need the resurrection and these people were mentioned in Rev 7.
9After these things I saw, and lo, a great crowd, which no one could number, out of every nation and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cry with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, These who are clothed with white robes, who are they, and whence came they? 14 And I said to him, My lord, *thou* knowest. And he said to me, These are they who come out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So, the Bible clearly states that Group AA ( Judges), BB( Martyrs), CC( Saints from GT), will participate in the First Resurrection, and the REST of the DEAD shall not be resurrected until 1000 years are finished. Actually I consider CC group only as CC-A because the survivors do not need the resurrection, and the word ezesan means the resurrection. the survivors will automatically participate in the Millennium.
Do you think Group AA, BB, CC cover all the Believers in Christ?
Which group do you think Lot in OT and the adulterous man in 1 Cor 5 will belong to ? Are they Judges? Are they Martyrs? They didn't suffer the Great Tribulation because they died much earlier.
Why does Bible say, the REST of The DEAD shall not be resurrected for a thousand years?
5) Moreover, Rev 20 tells us that the Book of Life is opened up only at the end of the 1000 years
Re 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled, and place was not found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [that] of life. And the dead were judged out of the things written in the books according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which [were] in it, and death and hades gave up the dead which [were] in them; and they were judged each according to their works: 14 and death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, [even] the lake of fire.15 And if any one was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. ( what if anyone is found written in the book of life?)
These must be answered if you are confident with Believers total resurrection at one time.
If you cannot present the arguments supporting One time resurrection of the Believers, try to think about the other way - Partial Resurrection of the Believers, then you would find no problem with the rest of the Bible.
Last edited:
Eliyahu:
"Why does Jesus call the last group first? Why doesn't He call everyone at the same time?"
GE:
Irrelevant question! This is a parable that does not deal on the resurrection, and least on some arbitrary conceived time-sequence of more than one resurrections.
If your answer is relevant - viewed without reference to the resurrection - then, the answer is easy. "The last" are those labourers who in comparison received the least payment - those who began to work first received but one twelvth of what the last received. In taht sense exactly, does God compensate the saved; no one in any case could pay the price of their salvation. The worst sinners (for argument's sake) receive the most mercy; the last; are first. The best of sinners saved, SEEM to have received the least mercy; the 'first' (or best) come last in terms of merit. Why? because salvation is all of God, and "God, is not a respecter of persons".
What more do you want?
"Why does Jesus call the last group first? Why doesn't He call everyone at the same time?"
GE:
Irrelevant question! This is a parable that does not deal on the resurrection, and least on some arbitrary conceived time-sequence of more than one resurrections.
If your answer is relevant - viewed without reference to the resurrection - then, the answer is easy. "The last" are those labourers who in comparison received the least payment - those who began to work first received but one twelvth of what the last received. In taht sense exactly, does God compensate the saved; no one in any case could pay the price of their salvation. The worst sinners (for argument's sake) receive the most mercy; the last; are first. The best of sinners saved, SEEM to have received the least mercy; the 'first' (or best) come last in terms of merit. Why? because salvation is all of God, and "God, is not a respecter of persons".
What more do you want?
Eliyahu:
"I haven't read the latest posts, but don't find any effective arguments to the partial resurrection."
Until you let us read any eefective argument from the Scriptures to the effect of 'the partial resurrection', we shall believe the Bible that knows only one resurrection of "the Day of the LORD". One 'day'; one resurrection. One salvation; one Saviour; ONE 'CHANCE'!
"I haven't read the latest posts, but don't find any effective arguments to the partial resurrection."
Until you let us read any eefective argument from the Scriptures to the effect of 'the partial resurrection', we shall believe the Bible that knows only one resurrection of "the Day of the LORD". One 'day'; one resurrection. One salvation; one Saviour; ONE 'CHANCE'!
With God there is no order of merit with men.
Eliyahu:
"What is the better resurrection and what is the worse resurrection if everyone is resurrected at the same time?"
GE:
I appreciate your short comments whether to the point or not. This time it's to the point.
Your question surely is answered in the passage you have referred to? The better resurrection is to eternal life; the worse resurrection is to eternal damnation -- exactly for being at the one and only time all the dead are raised at the same time.
"What is the better resurrection and what is the worse resurrection if everyone is resurrected at the same time?"
GE:
I appreciate your short comments whether to the point or not. This time it's to the point.
Your question surely is answered in the passage you have referred to? The better resurrection is to eternal life; the worse resurrection is to eternal damnation -- exactly for being at the one and only time all the dead are raised at the same time.