The "FIRST resurrection" - THE Focus of the NT saints?

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"why doesn't Bible simply state that as " All they that are Christ's"?"

GE:

Because it's not a matter of time-sequence, but of order of dignity: First, Christ; after Him - men - or 'man'. "He is the First Fruit". The 'rest' follow because He prepared the Way. We shall rise because He rose from the dead. It's the Gospel in one sentence of truth.
Does it not satisfy? What can satisfy discontented curiosity? Christ is all in all, enough; we shall be raised in the (only) "last day". Christian Faith. The rest, to use BobRyan's favourite word, is bogus!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"Are they all covering the Believers since the Creation of the World? What about Lot? Did he martyr?"

GE:

Like the parable siad, the last shall be first; and the first sahll be last. Lot is a good example of this principle of free grace. Witness is the mark of the saints. Some witnessed by being beheaded; others by a peaceful life. They witnessed for the Faith of Jesus", is what God takes into consideration. How, would you think, or I, would it be possible for God, once He start to recompense men according to the measure of his own merit, to recompense justly? There would have been but one way: to condemn the lot! But since Christ is our full - and ONLY - reward, every saved persons receives from God His very best, even His own Son. Reckon: Soare we become sons and daughters of God Almighty Father!

Satisfied? Not?, then I don't know how to help you - if at all you asked help and has not been fully satisfied already.

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

"What is the better resurrection and what is the worse resurrection if everyone is resurrected at the same time?"

GE:

I appreciate your short comments whether to the point or not. This time it's to the point.

Your question surely is answered in the passage you have referred to? The better resurrection is to eternal life; the worse resurrection is to eternal damnation -- exactly for being at the one and only time all the dead are raised at the same time.

So, are you saying that the believers who have not experienced the Torturing will not have the Eternal Life? Have you ever suffered from the Torturing for the Lord? If not, you yourself have not got the Eternal Life yet, right?

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

"Are they all covering the Believers since the Creation of the World? What about Lot? Did he martyr?"

GE:

Like the parable siad, the last shall be first; and the first sahll be last. Lot is a good example of this principle of free grace. Witness is the mark of the saints. Some witnessed by being beheaded; others by a peaceful life. They witnessed for the Faith of Jesus", is what God takes into consideration. How, would you think, or I, would it be possible for God, once He start to recompense men according to the measure of his own merit, to recompense justly? There would have been but one way: to condemn the lot! But since Christ is our full - and ONLY - reward, every saved persons receives from God His very best, even His own Son. Reckon: Soare we become sons and daughters of God Almighty Father!

Satisfied? Not?, then I don't know how to help you - if at all you asked help and has not been fully satisfied already.

Read REv 20:4-5 once again.

Verse 4 clearly specifies the 3 groups, then verse 5 says the rest of the dead will not live again( be resurrected).
Verse 4 tells us 3 groups of AA) Special Saints of Judges, BB) Martyrs, CC) Protestors to the Anti-
Christ.

Where does the Robber at the Cross belong to?

Does the Robber belong to 144,000? or Does he belong to Martyrs? Does he belong to Protestors to the Anti-Christ?



Bible teaches you in Rev 20:5, The Rest of the Dead will not be resurrected until 1000 years are finished.


If you read Matt 20 carefully, the story is about the Reward after the work, and the Lord calls everyone, starting from the Last to the first. If you refuse that teaching, I cannot help you any more.

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

"why doesn't Bible simply state that as " All they that are Christ's"?"

GE:

Because it's not a matter of time-sequence, but of order of dignity: First, Christ; after Him - men - or 'man'. "He is the First Fruit". The 'rest' follow because He prepared the Way. We shall rise because He rose from the dead. It's the Gospel in one sentence of truth.
Does it not satisfy? What can satisfy discontented curiosity? Christ is all in all, enough; we shall be raised in the (only) "last day". Christian Faith. The rest, to use BobRyan's favourite word, is bogus!

Read 1 Cor 15:20-25 again.
It talks about the time sequence and Jesus christ has already been resurrected.
The only question you may argue is whether The ones who are Christ's at His coming include all the Christ's or not. If it includes all the Christ's, then Bible would have said simply " Christ's", but by adding " at His coming", it already implies there might be some more Christ's who are not coming with Him at His Coming.

And Rev 20:10-15 tells us the Book of Life is open after 1000 years. Why is it opened so late after all believers are resurrected?

 

[BobRyan]

I

) 1 Cor 15:
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power

Ok so we SEE TWO resurrections. Christ's and then at HIS COMING all those saints who BELONG to Christ -- "The DEAD in Christ" as Paul calls them in 1Thess 4.

Where is the confusion???

Why doesn't Paul simply say that the Believers first, then unbelievers later?

Because he is not talking about anyone but CHRIST Himself in the first resurrection as he stated clearly in 1Cor 15 "FOR if CHRIST is not raised then you are still in your sins".

the CONTEXT of 1cor 15 points clearly to the HISTORIC resurrection of Jesus that had ALREADY taken place at that time.

So Christ FIRST - (30 AD ?) and THEN those who ARE Christ's (the DEAD in Christ) "at His coming".

How in the world can this be confusing for anyone???

Why there is an order for everyone? What is " Everyone's own order" ? Let' say you believe, and I believe, both will be resurrected, if both are resurrected at the same time, do you think the Bible need to state everyone's own order?

The "order" pertains to TWO resurrection events --
1. CHRIST ,,,
2. and then "those who ARE Christ's" (the DEAD in Christ)

Are they that are Christ's at His coming all the Christ's?

Indeed "THOSE that ARE Christ's AT His coming"?

What is the confusing part?

What do you lose by simply accepting the text as stated??

It fits perfectly with 1Thess 4 AND with Rev 20 AND with Matt 24...

What is not to like??

What doctrine does it challenge for you?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Ok so we SEE TWO resurrections. Christ's and then at HIS COMING all those saints who BELONG to Christ -- "The DEAD in Christ" as Paul calls them in 1Thess 4.

Where is the confusion???

You are addicted to add your own words to the Bible.

Because he is not talking about anyone but CHRIST Himself in the first resurrection as he stated clearly in 1Cor 15 "FOR if CHRIST is not raised then you are still in your sins".

the CONTEXT of 1cor 15 points clearly to the HISTORIC resurrection of Jesus that had ALREADY taken place at that time.

So Christ FIRST - (30 AD ?) and THEN those who ARE Christ's (the DEAD in Christ) "at His coming".

How in the world can this be confusing for anyone???

Now you recovered the sanity.

The "order" pertains to TWO resurrection events --
1. CHRIST ,,,
2. and then "those who ARE Christ's" (the DEAD in Christ)

Now you show another addiction deleting the words from the Bible.

those who are Christ's at His coming !

Indeed "THOSE that ARE Christ's AT His coming"?

What is the confusing part?

What do you lose by simply accepting the text as stated??

It fits perfectly with 1Thess 4 AND with Rev 20 AND with Matt 24...

What is not to like??

What doctrine does it challenge for you?

in Christ,

Bob

Let me reiterate my interpretation:

1) Christ
2) Christ's at His Coming
3) Rest of the people which include those who are Christ's but are not coming at His coming, but are to be resurrected later.

No other doctrine challenges me but the Word-to-Word interpretation.

You have not interpretted Rev 20:4-5 but you cannot change the trurth by evading those verses:

4 And I saw thrones; and AA) they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and BB) the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and CC) those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand;and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years: 5 DD) the rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed. This [is] the first resurrection.

Which group does the Robber at the Cross belong to?

This is an examination!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Read REv 20:4-5 once again.

Verse 4 clearly specifies the 3 groups, then verse 5 says the rest of the dead will not live again( be resurrected).

GE:

No 'groups', but one 'group' - the saved, the living, who reigned with Christ on thrones either by having been beheaded ('martyred/tortured'), or, not worshipping the beast - the 'witnesses'.

Eli:

Verse 4 tells us 3 groups of AA) Special Saints of Judges, BB) Martyrs, CC) Protestors to the Anti-
Christ.

GE:
Can't I read? No 'groups'; but the 'witnesses for the faith of Jesus. They reigned with Christ, and DIED being witnesses for Him.
Then John further sees, "... the rest of the dead ...". (They) lived NOT the Thousand Years", but, remained dead in their sins, and DIED in their sins, "this the Thousand Years" of Christ's and the saint's reign.

The Thousand Years - the First Resurrection : this the era of Christ's Kingdom upon the earth, the age of the Christian Church, the Kingdom of heaven.

Eli:

Where does the Robber at the Cross belong to?

Does the Robber belong to 144,000? or Does he belong to Martyrs? Does he belong to Protestors to the Anti-Christ?

GE:

He clearly belongs to the witnesses of Jesus.



Eli:

Bible teaches you in Rev 20:5, The Rest of the Dead will not be resurrected until 1000 years are finished.

GE:

Exactly!


Eli:

If you read Matt 20 carefully, the story is about the Reward after the work, and the Lord calls everyone, starting from the Last to the first.

GE:

Exactly!

Eli:
If you refuse that teaching, I cannot help you any more.

GE:

Neither could I help you to see. I am not the Giver of an eye that could see, see?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Ok so we SEE TWO resurrections. Christ's and then at HIS COMING all those saints who BELONG to Christ -- "The DEAD in Christ" as Paul calls them in 1Thess 4.

GE:

Sure!

Just like John is Rv20:4 speaks of "the dead IN CHRIST", but in verse five, speaks also of "the REST of the dead (who) came not to life during the thousand years this the first resurrection", but remained in the death of sin.

Paul in 1Thess4 speaks to these very believers who would witness for the faith of Jesus, the Church; he admonishes them to holiness of life. "The rest of the dead", the damned, IS NOT HIS SUBJECT; therefore he doesn't write about them. It is not to say the wicked are not also raised in the last day "at the coming of Christ". The Bible elsewhere fills us in with that detail. One 'second' coming of Christ; one (second) resurrection - the resurrection of all the dead; but: ONE judgment: for the saints "the First Resurrection" during the reign of Christ the Thousand Years"; for the damned "the second death" at His coming and the (second) resurrection the resurrection of all the dead, judgement day!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Thousand Years - the First Resurrection : this the era of Christ's Kingdom upon the earth, the age of the Christian Church, the Kingdom of heaven -- the judgment of the saved : In Christ. "They shall not enter into judgement"; "(They) shall never die." Because "in Christ" they have already been judged and found worthy of eternal life; because "in Christ" and "with Him" they already died and had been raised and exalted already and for eternity.

 

[Brother Bob]

Matt 27:
52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53: And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54: Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Everyone just skips over this like it did not happen!! It is skipped over because it does not fit into your literal earthly reign of which the church didn't accept until around the ninetenth century. I think it was John Darby, followed by D.L. Moody that resurrected this doctrine which was rejected beginning with St. Agustine until around the 19th Century.

Justin Martyr (A.D.150)
CHAP. XI.--WHAT KINGDOM CHRISTIANS LOOK FOR.
"And when you hear that we look for a kingdom, you suppose, without making any inquiry, that we speak of a human kingdom; whereas we speak of that which is with God, as appears also from the confession of their faith made by those who are charged with being Christians, though they know that death is the punishment awarded to him who so confesses. For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ, that we might not be slain; and we should strive to escape detection, that we might obtain what we expect. But since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men cut us off; since also death is a debt which must at all events be paid." (First Apology of Justin Martyr, ch. 11)


Seems that Justin preached an earthly Kingdom but was called on the "carpet" for it. There were a few others, but not many.

I believe Christ was the First Resurrection and blessed and Holy is he that hath a part in Christ, for on such the second death hath no power.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"Rest of the people which include those who are Christ's but are not coming at His coming, but are to be resurrected later."

GE:

"Rest of the people" (not 'people', but "dead"), does NOT "include those who are Christ's"; "the rest of the dead" are those who "came not to life during the Thousand Years".
"Those who are Christ's", "at His coming" (Paul), are those of Rv20:4 who "witnessed for the faith of Jesus", raised from the dead "at His coming".

So what is this, "....but are not coming at His coming, but are to be resurrected later"? Your own 'position'?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Matt 27:
52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53: And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54: Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Everyone just skips over this like it did not happen!! It is skipped over because it does not fit into your literal earthly reign of which the church didn't accept until around the ninetenth century. I think it was John Darby, followed by D.L. Moody that resurrected this doctrine which was rejected beginning with St. Agustine until around the 19th Century.

Justin Martyr (A.D.150)
CHAP. XI.--WHAT KINGDOM CHRISTIANS LOOK FOR.
"And when you hear that we look for a kingdom, you suppose, without making any inquiry, that we speak of a human kingdom; whereas we speak of that which is with God, as appears also from the confession of their faith made by those who are charged with being Christians, though they know that death is the punishment awarded to him who so confesses. For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ, that we might not be slain; and we should strive to escape detection, that we might obtain what we expect. But since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men cut us off; since also death is a debt which must at all events be paid." (First Apology of Justin Martyr, ch. 11)


Seems that Justin preached an earthly Kingdom but was called on the "carpet" for it. There were a few others, but not many.

GE:

No, Brother Bob. Haven't you noticed my post in answer?

I think there are more people than just me who think these were the "captives taken" with Jesus when He ascended into heaven after His resurrection. I don't know for sure, and don't see why I should.

This incident, I may be sure though, I believe, has nothing to do with the resurrection of the last day.

 

[Brother Bob]

How come the earthly Kingdom doctrine being literal was silenced by the church until around 19th Century, if the following is true.

II. Historical review of millennial thinking in Christian theology.
A. Early church (c. 100-250) - millennium not emphasized. Variety of views.

B. Early reaction to view of earthly millennium.

1. Origen (c. 185-254) attributed such thinking to heretic, Cerinthus

2. Montanist heresy (c.175) had excesses of earthly millennial views.

3. Rampant speculation to calculate end time.

C. Augustine (354-430) rejected his previous earthly millennial position and interpreted

"1000 years" of Rev. 20 as symbolic of entire period from first coming of Christ to

second coming of Christ.

1. Council of Ephesus (431) condemned earthly millennium interpretation as heretical

superstition.

2. Became orthodox view of Church for centuries.

D. Reformation (sixteenth century) - Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Anabaptists accepted symbolic

interpretation of "1000 years." Regarded Catholic Pope as Antichrist.

E. Seventeenth - nineteenth centuries - gradually revived earthly millennium view.

F. Nineteenth & twentieth centuries.

1. J.N. Darby (Plymouth Brethren), followed by D.L. Moody, C.I. Scofield, H.A. Ironside

(Dallas Theological Sem.), developed theological system of Dispensationalism

incorporating earthly millennium and pre-tribulation rapture of Church. Became a

primarily American theological phenomenon.

2. Majority of theological community (Post-millennial and Amillennial) has regarded

Dispensationalism as a modernist aberrational (disorder of the mind) interpretation.

I know not how true this account is of the thousand year reign, but have heard of Darby before as starting the Pre-millemium doctrine. If this doctrine didn't start until the ninetenth century, give me the Old Time Doctrine. I think the J W and the Adventist were among the first to accept this doctrine when resurrected by John Darby followed by Moody. How come for at least 16 hundred years they preached and believed as I do, that it was Spiritual.
__________________
Brother Bob,

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Brother Bob:

"Justin Martyr (A.D.150)
CHAP. XI.--WHAT KINGDOM CHRISTIANS LOOK FOR.
"And when you hear that we look for a kingdom, you suppose, without making any inquiry, that we speak of a human kingdom; whereas we speak of that which is with God, as appears also from the confession of their faith made by those who are charged with being Christians, though they know that death is the punishment awarded to him who so confesses. For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ, that we might not be slain; and we should strive to escape detection, that we might obtain what we expect. But since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men cut us off; since also death is a debt which must at all events be paid." (First Apology of Justin Martyr, ch. 11)


Seems that Justin preached an earthly Kingdom but was called on the "carpet" for it. There were a few others, but not many."

GE:

Beg to differ.
To me it seems Justin had in mind a 'kingdom' with 'thoughts not fixed on the present'. He actually argues that Christians were misunderstood for wanting an earthly kingdom.
Justin in any case means nothing but for historic purposes.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Brother Bob:

"I know not how true this account is of the thousand year reign, but have heard of Darby before as starting the Pre-millemium doctrine. If this doctrine didn't start until the ninetenth century, give me the Old Time Doctrine."

GE:

Amen!
I should say that "Old Time Doctrine" was 3C and D = NT doctrine!

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

"Rest of the people which include those who are Christ's but are not coming at His coming, but are to be resurrected later."

GE:

"Rest of the people" (not 'people', but "dead"), does NOT "include those who are Christ's";

That's your definition, not the Bible itself.

"the rest of the dead" are those who "came not to life during the Thousand Years".

No, not during the 1000 years, but after the 1000 years.

"Those who are Christ's", "at His coming" (Paul), are those of Rv20:4 who "witnessed for the faith of Jesus", raised from the dead "at His coming".

Yes, but not all.

So what is this, "....but are not coming at His coming, but are to be resurrected later"? Your own 'position'?

The Believers who are Christ's but are not coming with Christ at His coming, but will be resurrected after 1000 years.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well GE;
I don't think it will be too long we all will know for sure. You must wonder why the earthly Kingdom was rejected for around 1600 years though.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Also I notice a doctrine's age and age of origin are of importance too to you. Another Amen with everything that is said between the lines re the 'first' and the 'second' resurrection 'doctrines' of the nineteenth century!

 

[Eliyahu]

The Thousand Years - the First Resurrection : this the era of Christ's Kingdom upon the earth, the age of the Christian Church, the Kingdom of heaven -- the judgment of the saved : In Christ. "They shall not enter into judgement"; "(They) shall never die." Because "in Christ" they have already been judged and found worthy of eternal life; because "in Christ" and "with Him" they already died and had been raised and exalted already and for eternity.

Romans 14
. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God