The "FIRST resurrection" - THE Focus of the NT saints?

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Mark this difference between 19 and 20: In 19 where the resurrection judgment and damnation of the wicked are described, THEY, are cast into the lake of fire; in 20 where the resurrection is focussed on the saved, "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire" - no mention of anyone thrown into it!

It illustrates the parallel sequence rather than a chronological sequence.

If we have to believe BobRyan, the placing of the two chapters should have been chapter 20 before chapter 19!

 

[BobRyan]

If we believe BobRyan -- then Chapter 19 (the 2nd coming and APPEARING of Christ) happens BEFORE the 1000 years. AFTER Christ appears (as in Chapt 19) we then come to the FIRST resurrection - the resurrection of the DEAD in Christ - those over whom the second death has no power.

At His appearing (Rev 19) we have "the feast of the birds" also seen in the Ot.

At His appearing the saints are taken to heaven "and the REST are killed".

At His appearing every mountain is removed all the wicked (living) are destroyed in fire and brimstone.

Kinda hard to miss.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BR,

My explanation coincides with Matt 20, 1 Cor 15:20-25, 1 Thess 4:15-, Heb 11:35, Re 20:4-5, but yours cannot explain Matt 20, Heb 11:35, who are the Rest of the Dead in Re 20:5

The REST of the dead " ARE not RAISED to LIFE" until AFTER 1000 years.

THE REST of the dead are these "over whom the second death DOES have power" as contrasted to the ones in the FIRST resurrection.

The DEAD in Christ RISE FIRST, this is the FIRST resurrection sir -- then 1000 years later "the REST of the dead come to life" and over THESE the second death DOES have power..

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

The REST of the dead " ARE not RAISED to LIFE" until AFTER 1000 years.

THE REST of the dead are these "over whom the second death DOES have power" as contrasted to the ones in the FIRST resurrection.

The DEAD in Christ RISE FIRST, this is the FIRST resurrection sir -- then 1000 years later "the REST of the dead come to life" and over THESE the second death DOES have power..

in Christ,

Bob

It doesn't say that the second death will have the power over all the Rest of the Dead, but the people of First Resurrection won't have it. It doesn't rule out that the Believers from the Second Resurrection will be exempted from the Second Death.

Verse 6 says this:
Re 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Whom shall they reign? Who shall be ruled by them?

 

[BobRyan]

The text SAYS "over THESE the second death has NO power"--Rev 20:5 speaking of those raised FIRST -- those in the FIRST RESURRECTION.

Some seem to want to ADD "and that is not all - there are also those in the SECOND resurrection over whom the second death has no power - not just those in the FIRST resurrection". It is a much needed addition if you hold that view -- but if you don't hold to that view - the text works just as it is - which means ONLY those dead raised in the FIRST resurrection (the DEAD in Christ the rise FIRST) are exempt from the SECOND death. Everyone else is judged by works - and by works they are condemned according to Romans 3.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Verse 6 says this:
Re 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Whom shall they reign? Who shall be ruled by them?

The text does not say.

But Christ said that the disciples would judge angels.

This is probably a reference to the saints in heaven (who are taken to be WITH christ WHERE He is -- IN His Father's house) who being "raised FIRST" at the "FIRST resurrection" are taken up in the air and then to heaven with Christ to review the books of record regarding the wicked - including the historic record of the fallen angels.

But more to the point - the text of Rev 20 does not say over whom they rule.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

The text SAYS "over THESE the second death has NO power"--Rev 20:5 speaking of those raised FIRST -- those in the FIRST RESURRECTION.

Some seem to want to ADD "and that is not all - there are also those in the SECOND resurrection over whom the second death has no power - not just those in the FIRST resurrection". It is a much needed addition if you hold that view -- but if you don't hold to that view - the text works just as it is - which means ONLY those dead raised in the FIRST resurrection (the DEAD in Christ the rise FIRST) are exempt from the SECOND death. Everyone else is judged by works - and by works they are condemned according to Romans 3.

in Christ,

Bob

The group of First Resurrection is cleared of the Second Death very clearly, but the Believers of the Second Resurrection will be identified according to the Book of Life. There can be a degree of diffference between 2 groups.
I already told you that Heb 11:35 says the Better Resurrection.
The Martyrs will have the Better Resurrection.

Who are they going to reign ? Bob, I asked you this before.

 

[Eliyahu]

The text does not say.

But Christ said that the disciples would judge angels.

This is probably a reference to the saints in heaven (who are taken to be WITH christ WHERE He is -- IN His Father's house) who being "raised FIRST" at the "FIRST resurrection" are taken up in the air and then to heaven with Christ to review the books of record regarding the wicked - including the historic record of the fallen angels.

But more to the point - the text of Rev 20 does not say over whom they rule.

in Christ,

Bob

I don't think Re 20 talks about reigning the Angels as the Earthly Life has not ended yet.

There will be millions and millions of the Believers during the Great Tribulation, and they will survive the GT,
they are mentioned in ch 7, then will participate in the Millennium, and will be ruled by those groups mentioned by the verse 4 of 20.

That's why they are called the Judges which may be 144,000.

My analysis is very much consistant.

 

[BobRyan]

In Rev 19 -- all human life on earth is ended. The wicked armies are destroyed "AND THE REST are KILLED by the sword that comes from His mouth"

this leaves a condition on earth where the OT writers say "I looked and behold there was NO MAN" -- the earth is covered end to end with dead bodies with no one to bury them. And so you have the "feast of the birds" in Rev 19 also mentioned in the OT.

Corpses left with no one to bury them.


Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a
place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.

This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind





in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 19
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killedwith the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh



Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleyswith your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.






Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.



Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


] Zeph 1:18[/b]
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 [/b]The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled, [/b][/quote]


It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.
21 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth.


And yet this is “before” the Great White Throne judgment and the final burning in the lake of Fire and brimstone of all raised in the 2nd resurrection – who then suffer the 2nd death – which is the lake of fire and brimstone. So this condition is indeed “temporary”.

Isaiah 24
22 They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.

 

[Eliyahu]

In Rev 19 -- all human life on earth is ended. The wicked armies are destroyed "AND THE REST are KILLED by the sword that comes from His mouth"

this leaves a condition on earth where the OT writers say "I looked and behold there was NO MAN" -- the earth is covered end to end with dead bodies with no one to bury them. And so you have the "feast of the birds" in Rev 19 also mentioned in the OT.

Corpses left with no one to bury them.


Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a
place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.

This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind





in Christ,

Bob

There will be the nations on this earth.
Re 20: 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Gog and Magog is understood somewhere in Russia.

The participants in Millennium will be the survivors from GT and Judges, Martyrs, GT Refusals.

BTW, I believe in the Partial Rapture and Partial Resurrection.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't think Re 20 talks about reigning the Angels as the Earthly Life has not ended yet.

There will be millions and millions of the Believers during the Great Tribulation, and they will survive the GT,
they are mentioned in ch 7, then will participate in the Millennium, and will be ruled by those groups mentioned by the verse 4 of 20.

That's why they are called the Judges which may be 144,000.

My analysis is very much consistant.

The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

As you can see - Matt 24 sequence matches the one in Revelation. In Rev 15-16 we see that the 7 last plagues and great trib happen before Rev 19-20 the second coming event where we see Christ appear in the heavens with an Army of angels.

So while you are correct about the saints making it through the great tribulation and the 7 last plagues - they are then raptured and taken up with "the DEAD in Christ who rise FIRST" at the appearing of Christ 1Thess 4 Rev 19 and the saints Rise FIRST (as Paul says ) in What John describes many years later as the "FIRST resurrection". (I just have t think that John had access to Paul's writings by the end of his life)

 

[BobRyan]

Peter tells us that the entire NT is focused on the singular event of the benefits of Christ's appearing.

1Pet 1[/b]
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. [/quote]


Matthew shows us how Christ lays out the timeline - perfectly to that singular event that the entire NT church focused on.

The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

 

[Eliyahu]

Peter tells us that the entire NT is focused on the singular event of the benefits of Christ's appearing.

1Pet 1[/b]
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Matthew shows us how Christ lays out the timeline - perfectly to that singular event that the entire NT church focused on.

The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

Mt 24 should be interpretted along with Luke 17 and 21 which includes the Judean War around 66-70 AD.

The Partial Rapture can be confirmed in Re 11:10-13

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

They were the 2 witnesses, 2 candlesticks, 2 olive trees, all of which are explained very well in Zechariah 4, and therefore we can understand they are the key Christian believers essential to witness the Words of God, Jesus Christ on this earth. They will be raptured and their enemies will observe it, and the Remnant of the Believers will give glory to God. Therefore there will still be believers throughout the GT and will survive the GT, and will participate in the Millennium. The 2 wtinesses may form the part of the Governing Body of the New Government headed by Jesus Christ, which is also explained in Re 20:4
The Remnants in Re 11:13 are the same as we read in Re 12:17.

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 11 speaks of God's two witnesses (the OT and the NT) and the fact that "The Word of God" is what shuts up heaven or declares a curse upon man- and the fact that the Word of God was banned in the dark ages and even in pagan France during the reign of terror in France. (A period of about 10 years).

This has nothing at all to do with a general resurrection of the saints.


Rev 11
3 ""And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.''
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.



The two witnesses are the two lampstands.
The Two lampstands are the Word of God (OT and the NT).

Zech 4
2 He said to me, "What do you see?" And I said, "I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it;
3 also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side."
4 Then I said to the angel who was speaking with me saying, "What are these, my lord?"
5 So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
6 Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD[/b] to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.
…
11 Then I said to him, "What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?"
12 And I answered the second time and said to him, "What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?"
13 So he answered me, saying, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
14 Then he said, "These are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth."


The Word of God is represented by the Lampstand and the two witnesses – the two anointed ones are connected with it as the two olive trees providing oil to the lampstand. Oil flows from the olive trees to the lampstand.

Rev 11
5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
6

These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

By the Word of the Lord the heavens were made, by His Word Elijah shut up the heavens and as Christ said “My Word will judge” mankind in the last days.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Rev 11 speaks of God's two witnesses (the OT and the NT) and the fact that "The Word of God" is what shuts up heaven or declares a curse upon man- and the fact that the Word of God was banned in the dark ages and even in pagan France during the reign of terror in France. (A period of about 10 years).

This has nothing at all to do with a general resurrection of the saints.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, you better read the chapter 4 of Zechariah and find how much coincidence exist between 2 chapters.

Exactly, 2 Witnesses, 2 Olive Trees, 2 Golden Pipes of Candle Sticks of Zech 4 are the same as in Re 11, and they turned the water into blood for 1260 days which is the same period mentioned in ch 12.
The raptured people may form the part of governing body of the Millennium.

There will be the remnants and they will be ruled and reigned by the people of the First Resurrection ( 20:4)

 

[BobRyan]

Now here is the fascinating part. John is VERY explicit and extensive in his TWO CHAPTER discussion of the appearing of Christ the FIRST RESURRECTION (those over whom the second death does NOT have power) - the 1000 years AND the resurrection of the "REST of the DEAD" over whom the second death DOES have power.

But Rev 11 says NOTHING about a resurrection of the saints - rather exactly TWO witnesses are identified.


1Peter 1
6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.


10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.[/b]
12 It was [b]revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you[/b], in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you[/b] by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven things into which angels long to look.

13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, [b]fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.[/b]


Now consider this - in 1Peter 1 we are told that the ENTIRE NT CHURCH was focused on this SINGULAR event of the "DEAD in Christ rising FIRST" and John calls it the "FIRST RESURRECTION" as he looks into the future seeing all the future resurrections.

Yet we are told by some that we need to "imagine" the actual general resurrection of the saints in some place like Rev 11 that says nothing about it at all???

Is John really going to give NO ATTENTION to the ENTIRE FOCUS event of the whole NT church -- (skimpy and obscured in Rev 11) and ALL FOCUS to some minor resurrection non-event to follow??? Think about it!

Why not rather believe that HE gives FULL and detailed attention to THE EVENT of the NT church in Rev 19-20 and that he keeps the same sequence as we see in 1Thess 5 and Matt 24 and 1Cor 15??

Why not accept that the Bible is spelling it out boldly and impossible to miss?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

There will be the remnants and they will be ruled and reigned by the people of the First Resurrection ( 20:4)

The problem is that there is no mention in Rev 20:4 of ruling over people no mention of ruling on earth.

Rather we see in Rev 20:4-5 the "FIRST resurrection" and just as in 1Thess 4 where we are told that the "DEAD in Christ rise FIRST" we know that this is where Christ comes and "receives us to himself that WHERE He is there we may be also" taking the saints to heaven at His Rev 19 appearing -- whole chapters in Rev devoted to this singular FOCUS event for the entire NT church..

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

The problem is that there is no mention in Rev 20:4 of ruling over people no mention of ruling on earth.

Rather we see in Rev 20:4-5 the "FIRST resurrection" and just as in 1Thess 4 where we are told that the "DEAD in Christ rise FIRST" we know that this is where Christ comes and "receives us to himself that WHERE He is there we may be also" taking the saints to heaven at His Rev 19 appearing -- whole chapters in Rev devoted to this singular FOCUS event for the entire NT church..

in Christ,

Bob

1. The Dead in Christ rise First : The Judges and Martyrs in Re 20:4 will rise first.

2. The Judges to rule:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


3. Re 11
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Apparently Re 11 shows the Rapture.

I didn't say that the Re 11 is about the Resurrection but that it is about the Partial Rapture as you can read the Remnants in verse 13.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


Your interpretation cannot explain who are going to be reigned by those who are given the judgments.

Judges and Martyrs will rise first, which doesn't mean ALL the Dead rise first but means that the Chosen people will have the Better Resurrection.

 

[Eliyahu]

BR, there is no mentioning " the Singular Event" of Resurrection, but the Order of the Resurrection, and the Exclusive membership for the First Resurrection.


Zech 4:

11 Then I said to him, "What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?"
12 And I answered the second time and said to him, "What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?"
13 So he answered me, saying, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
14 Then he said, "These are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth."


The Word of God is represented by the Lampstand and the two witnesses – the two anointed ones are connected with it as the two olive trees providing oil to the lampstand. Oil flows from the olive trees to the lampstand.


Verse 14 shows that the 2 witnesses, 2 candlesticks, 2 olive trees are standing by the Lord on the Whole Earth, which doesn't mean any specific 2 persons as many misunderstands or any false prophets claims, but indicates Many of the Christian witnesses on the Whole Earth and they may be almost dead or actually dead due to the persecution by the beast, then after 3 and a half day, they will be raised up and will ascend up to heaven, which will be observed by the enemy and the remnants. Re 11 is mainly for the Partial Rapture.