The flimsy foundation of ME

A big Amen!

 

Then I think the ME guys should come and either confirm or refute what you have outlined here.

 

What doesn't make sense to me is here we have a person that is dead set against the gospel of the kingdom and has even put those of us that hold to the doctrine on ignore, but he is so obessed with this doctrine that he can't even let it go.

He is so dead set on this doctrine being heresy yet he continues to open up threads that give us opportunity to show just how Biblical it actually is.

Just for the record I believe the gospel of the kingdom to be true and have never read Bro. Joey's book. To my knowledge I have never even listened to an entire sermon by him.

And I know that there are a couple of others on here that could say the same thing, so this false idea that we are just a bunch of Joey Faust followers is simply ludacris.

It's just simply another post by someone that has run aground any kind of somewhat sane Biblical argument to throw out more emotion-based arguments. This is typically what happens when you can't refute what's being said with Scripture and you can't even prove what you personally believe to be truth with Scripture. You simply turn to emotionalism. And unfortunatley it takes on all kinds of forms.

 

Please excuse my ignorance, what it ME?

 

Lazarus ME is the intials for the derogatory way that opponents to the gospel of the kingdom refer to folks that hold to the doctrine. It stands for millenial exclusion or millenial exclusionists. It's simply another way that opponents deal in emotionalism instead of Scripture.

 

Lazarus, ME is the foolish doctine preached by many that saved people, those who Christ has sealed with His Holy Spirit, will spend the 1,000 years during the Millenial Reign of Christ in either
1. Outer Darkness
2. Hell
or
3. The Lake of Fire

To date, they have not been able to give Scriptural proof for the doctrine. When they do use Scripture, it is twisted out of context to fit their theory.

Grab a Bible and find one verse that says God's saved ones will be in one of the three places during the 1,000 year reign. It ain't there. Yet the ME proponents keep insisting it is... with no proof.

 

Thank you for the replies, Up until a few weeks ago when I first came across this forum I had never heard of such a thing as Kingdom Salvation or Millenial Salvation. I've been watching the debates with interest but I just couldn't figure out what the initials stood for.

I'm sorry J Jump but I believe there is only one Salvation.

Blessings

 

Lazarus let me ask you a question or two then. How do you reconcile Scripture that says salvation is by God's grace through faith apart from works with the Scripture that says salvation is through a faith that produces works?

Those two are contextually opposed to each other. There is no common ground. One says no works and the other says faith that produces works and without works the faith is useless and will not save.

I look forward to your response.

 

That's easy J Jump. I like everyone else am a sinner.

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

As such, there is nothing I can do to pay the debt I incurred from my sin except being delivered to hell since my sin condems me.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Because I accepted Jesus Christ as my Saviour, Jesus pays that debt for me. No works on my part involved.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Now being saved and having the love of Jesus, I no longer have the desire I once did to sin. I want to please God in what ever way I can.

Mt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

That's being a Christian, works demonstrate salvation. Works are never involved in salvation.

 

Isn't it beautiful? And simple. Praise God!

Love your cat!

 

Thank You. That's Lazarus, he's my buddy, my pal, my friend and companion. Sometimes I suspect that he's also an angel.

 

They are truly a gift from God. I have 2 new kittens, 7 week old sisters. :love2:

 

I like cats. They have a special flavor.

 

1. JJump, I use ME as an abbreviation, but by all means, I mean no disrespect. My use of it has nothing to do with emotionalism.

2. Is there a better term out there to capture the essence of your set of beliefs about the kingdom without you thinking it's derogatory?

 

I agree with a lot of what you have said here, because you are talking about salvation by grace through faith apart from works, and I'm sure that we would be in almost complete agreement there if not 100%.

However you deal very little with works.

So here's a couple of my followup questions for you. Let's say that John is saved at age 12. He lives a "Christian" life until he goes off to college, and then at college he falls into the typical college sin of drunkeness and fornicality. So John goes four years of college without even a second thought regarding his behavior. And let's say that during a graduation party John gets plastered and gets behind the wheel of a car and on his way home plows into a family of four and everyone dies, John included.

1. Is John saved.

2. And if John is saved then what happens to John at the JSOC?

 

Yes and I have already explained this on a couple of occasions. The doctrine is the gospel of the kingdom. It is also referred to as the word of the kingdom.

And while you may not directly be using it based on emotionalism there is an indirect impact whether you want it to be there or not. That would be like saying that anti-abortionists has no negative impact to it. If that were so they wouldn't use that term.

They use it because there is that impact. But it has been used so much now that there probably is a generation of people that don't see the emotionalism tied to the word, but it's still there.

There are a lot of other "trigger" words that exist like that in our culture.

 

Ro 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not (cat) meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. :tonofbricks:

 

1. Is John saved. Probably Not.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Salvation takes much more then a sinners prayer and no this doesn't involve works but deep seated belief. Without getting technical, I'll just say that without this kind of belief there is no salvation. Many believe and many are preached to that all they have to do is say a prayer and they are saved. But Romans 10:9 says you must believe in your heart.

2. And if John is saved then what happens to John at the JSOC? If these initials mean Jesus's Second Coming then John has the same problem as everyone else who isn't saved.

 

And herein lies the problem. You are basing your answer on John's lack of works for four years in his life, but totally ignoring six years of faithfulness.

See this shows the folly in following this church tradition. If you don't like someone's actions instead of sharing the Truth of Scripture with them you merely write them off as unsaved.

What you are saying is that unless you produce the right kind of works then you aren't saved. That is simply a backloaded works-based plan of salvation.

Eternal salvation is based on your faith in Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, Who died on your behalf a sinner. If you believe that you are saved. Everlasting life has just become a permanent possession the very moment you believed and it will NEVER be revoked for ANY reason.

A person may or may not live a sanctified life after that moment, but if they don't that in no wise cast a doubt as to whether they believed Jesus died for them or not.

Call it deep seated if you want, but all it takes is belief. Period. End of conversation according to Scripture. If you believe you are saved.

The Bible doesn't save if you believed you will do x,y,z for the rest of your life. There is simply no Biblical grounds for that church tradition.

But what you can't doubt is whether or not these people believe whether they say a prayer or not. What is happening here is that people are seeing a problem with the "sinner's prayer," (and I'm not a sinner's prayer guy myself), but instead of returning to the Biblical center those opposed to the sinner's prayer are swinging in almost the opposite direction and saying if you said a prayer you aren't saved or you probably aren't saved.

That is causing terrible mistakes to be made in regard to eternal salvation.

If the person believes they believe whether they said the right words or not.

JSOC - Judgment Seat of Christ But as per your answer to No. 1 you don't even think John will be there despite him being saved at the age of 12 and living a faithful life until he was 18.

Lazarus I will leave you with this encouragement. I would at least test the church tradition that you have been sold and see if it stands up to the test of Scripture and I think you might be surprised at how much has to fall by the way side. Trust me it's a tough thing to do, but it is well worth it!