The Gospel of Christ vs. The Gospel of John MacArthur

Hello.

IF THESE THINGS SAID ABOUT HIM ARE TRUE, then the doctrine sounds strange...for how can people weigh sins and determine where that cross-over fence is?
I believe that only Jesus saves, and what we do here in life shows how much we believe.
Second, it is what we do with what God has given us is important, but no one can determine if we succeeded or failed, but God alone. And don't forget Jeremiah...according to the world, he would have been considered a complete failure, but to God he was a success.
I am reminded of a book called, "The Call" by Rick Joyner. Some of his books are records of the visions that God gave him. This is one where he had a picture of people who were the godliest were closest to the Throne of God. I don't think that it was a "factual" type vision, but a "warning" type vision. Anyway, one of the ones closest to the throne was a homeless man, who died while protecting the body of a drunk on a cold snowy night. This man did not have much in life at all, but what God gave him, he used to promote the Lord, like buying tracts whenever he got fifty cents (if I remember correctly about this story). But this man was far from perfect.
Yet, even Paul from the Bible was not as close to the Throne as this man.

I believe when everything is said and done, I think it all comes down to relationship with the Lord, hearing His Voice, listening to Him, and obeying Him, trusting Him.
It is being a servant to Jesus Christ that makes us a success in this life.
We will always fail if we measure our successes or failures by the world's standards.

Consider "Solomon's" warehouse of vanities. All he had for sale were vanities. grin.

 

I have just read MacArthur's book "Hard To Believe" and hoped to find some legitimate arguments against what he defines as the "contemporary" church model (of which I am a part). He has created so much hype about this book and its answers to the seeker movement. I was sorely disappointed (to use an old KJV adjective). What I found was much of the same straw men MacArthur has attacked for years. What I have since gathered is that the book is simply a composite of sermons he has preached. What I did not find was any serious rebuttal against the movement.

It has been my contention from the beginning that MacArthur and others are attacking straw men. This book simply affirms my belief. I love John MacArthur and own over 50 of his books and commentaries, but once again, he falls short in this area.

I am still waiting for a valid critique of the seeker-sensitive movement. One has yet to be produced. This is not to say the seeker-movement does not have its weaknesses and extremes (just as traditionalism does). But after several years of reading and studying this subject matter, I have yet to find a book or author that shows the movement is unbiblical.

 

Please forgive this ignorant brother...can you tell me what is meant by the term "straw men?"

(I've never used or heard that term before!)

 

A "straw man argument" is a dishonest debating tactic in which someone attacks a position that his opponent does not actually hold, although it resembles it and is much easier to refute.

An example would be when KJV-onlyists accuse non-KJV-onlyists of "hating" the King James Bible, when in reality they are merely opposed to certain foolish opinions about the KJV.

 

I would add to Ransom's definition that it does not always have to be a deliberate dishonest attack. Many times it can be made in all sincerity. But, as in the case of MacArthur, what he is attacking is an extreme (which makes his own position easier to defend & rallies his troops).

 

I to have read many of his books .I started reading "Hard to Believe" today .Read 30 pages so far .

 

IFBReformer:

I don't know if this is the right thread for a discussion on what you and I believe, but, I guess the moderator can always move this or kill the discussion.

But, anyway, first off, I am not a hyper-Calvinist because I am not a Calvinist like I presume you are. Forgive me if I am wrong.

When I talk about what you say is presuming one is saved and never know it, I am referring to the eternal purposes of God, who inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15), and therefore is not constricted by time, as we are.

To the mind and for the purposes of the eternal God, the salvation of all His elect is a done deal. None will be lost, whether the child of God knows it or not, for his sonship is determined not by his creed, or his race, or his nation, or his tongue, but by the eternal purposes of Him who knew them from the womb, which is why Paul said that we are "sitted in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" which I take to be true of all God's children and not just those in the church at Ephesus.

But, as far as their position in time is concerned, all men, including the elect, who lived in the past, in the present, and will live in the future on this time-constricted earth, were and are enemies of God until they are regenerated by God thru or apart from Gospel preaching.
I quote John 1:12 - 13 here for what you said was my unscriptural view that we are saved before we believe.

These received him, and were given authority to become the sons of God, they believed on his name, and they were described as they which were born not of blood (not because they were related to Jesus or to Mary or to any high priest, or because they endured great affliction for him), nor of the will of the flesh (that is to say, they raised their hands and prayed the sinner's prayer and believed somebody's statement that they are saved), nor of the will of man (that is to say because somebody urged them to get saved), but of God.

So, they were regenerated, born again individuals who were born again because God caused their regeneration, before they even had to receive Jesus, they were already believers. Remember the old man who went and held the baby Jesus in his hands and thanked God because he had now seen his salvation ?

Now, let us consider John the Baptist, as a little baby in his mother's womb. You say, that we have to have belief first before we be included in Christ ?

Can a baby in the womb believe ? If not, then how come John knew who Christ was ? If a baby in the womb cannot believe, then are you saying an aborted fetus, or a baby who dies in the womb or barely months after the womb, have no hope ?

What about those who cannot think clearly. What about three year olds in forty year old bodies. Are they all lost ?

The key word is "in Christ". No one survives outside of Christ. No one is included apart from Christ. The Bible says we are "accepted in the beloved." Christ is our all in all.

The Ephesians were not included in Christ when they heard the word. When they heard the word, their inclusion in Christ was a finished fact, and so they believed.

But then, I keep forgetting that Calvinists or Reformists like yourself make the salvation of God's chosen effective only if they hear the gospel.

 

I've heard John MacArthur preach countless times and I love the fact that his main emphasis is *Obediance*.

Although, as Dr Bob said, JM is very black and white, I truly believe his heart is always in the right place. He is cut and dry as far as continuation in sin is concerned. I believe we can tell a christian at times by their fruits but also bearing in mind that many *Christian* churches are *saving* multitudes each week so in that area we can't always make a sound judgement. Obediance is the best way to judge whether someone is truly saved but obediance in love, crushing legalistic type of obediance.

Rich

 

ooops,

What I meant was, NOT a chrushing legalistic type of obediance.

 

Have you considered that church membership is an office? Though it is true that the Lord knows His own, we can and should judge whether one is walking in a manner worthy of his office, and remove him if he continues in sin.

We are to regard one removed from the office of believer as "an heathen and a publican."

 

I think the point of IFBs post was to argue against MacArthur's Lordship salvation. IFB is of the cheap grace, errrggh, "free" grace theory.

Basically, if I bring up any number of relevant texts to this discussion, it will be ignored. 1 Cor. 3 and Eph. 2:8-9 are the filter through which all other texts in the N.T. are understood.

 

I see no where in scripture where we are to believe because of what God does but rather because of what he has already done. Jesus has already died and risen and ascended.

In 1 Peter 1:4 the word for reserved is a perfect participle . Our inheritance is reserved from the past until now in the present and continuing on into the future.

If all is so cast then why in Matthew 22:2-14 are so many called?

Matthew 22:2-14, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. "Again he sent out other slaves saying, `Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast." ' "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire."Then he ^said to his slaves, `The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.`Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.' "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he ^said to him, `Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. "Then the king said to the servants, `Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' "For many are called , but few are chosen."

2 Cor. 5:11, "Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men , but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences."

Later in 6:2 Paul writes, "for He says, "At the acceptable time I listened to you, And on the day of salvation I helped you." Behold, now is "the acceptable time," behold, now is "the day of salvation"

So why persuade men if God has already chosen and has not called anyone to himself. But He has called many but few have chosen the path God has chosen for them,

 

My Bible says, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, period. What else is there. MacArthur is possessed with American theology in the comfort of his home. Put him in some persecuted country and he won't find anything to write about much . He won't be arguing some fine point of salvation but rather he will decide to live or not live for Jesus on a daily basis. It's that simple. When Jesus called his disciples he called them to follow Him. They eithewr followed or not.

 

Dear IFB Reformer,
Hey there. You quoted this and I know it is late here, but...regarding...
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""before they even had to receive Jesus, they were already believers."

Your statement above makes no sense. If you are a "believer" than means you have trusted in Christ. So how can you be a "believer" before you believe? Try and think that one through."
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Consider that in the Bible at least two times, once in Psalms and once in Acts, it talks about those that "fear" God will be saved.

In my opinion that encompasses an initial belief in God. Just a point to consider.

But I'm not arguing with anyone here...I find this interesting for I have never studied this concept really until recently...predestination, etc.

Perhaps all here are just coming at it from a different perspective, yet, perhaps if the entire Bible is embraced on every side and every view, we would all find ourselves fairly balanced somewhere inbetween the views....yes? no? Just wondering.

God bless you all.