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The Gospel that Calvinism cannot believe.

Dave...

Active Member
John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

According to Calvinism, He who does not believe already has eternal life and is not condemned, he only needs to evidence that with faith at some time point in time.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

According to Calvinism, the one without faith is at peace with God, already saved and very pleasing to God. This person simply needs to evidence that with faith at some point in time.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

According to Calvinism, a person is justified and saved before they believe and confess with their mouth. They only need to evidence that with faith at some point and time.

We could play this all day, but I think that you get the gist of it by now. Does someone care to explain these discrepancies? There a lot more.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

According to Calvinism, He who does not believe already has eternal life and is not condemned, he only needs to evidence that with faith at some time point in time.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

According to Calvinism, the one without faith is at peace with God, already saved and very pleasing to God. This person simply needs to evidence that with faith at some point in time.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

According to Calvinism, a person is justified and saved before they believe and confess with their mouth. They only need to evidence that with faith at some point and time.

We could play this all day, but I think that you get the gist of it by now. Does someone care to explain these discrepancies? There a lot more.

It's just a cycle of contradictions with TULIP, but they refuse to acknowledge it.

I'm at the point of shaking the dust from my feet with this absurdity.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
It's just a cycle of contradictions with TULIP, but they refuse to acknowledge it.

I'm at the point of shaking the dust from my feet with this absurdity.
I am about that way with Calvinism as a whole. Then I get bored and go after that low hanging fruit.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
I am about that way with Calvinism as a whole. Then I get bored and go after that low hanging fruit.

LoL, that's called being zealous for the Word of God, you can't help it, JonC, it's like a hot iron that has branded you in the heart.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
According to Calvinism, He who does not believe already has eternal life and is not condemned, he only needs to evidence that with faith at some time point in time.

According to Calvinism, the one without faith is at peace with God, already saved and very pleasing to God. This person simply needs to evidence that with faith at some point in time.

According to Calvinism, a person is justified and saved before they believe and confess with their mouth. They only need to evidence that with faith at some point and time.

2b. Secondly, Justification is not only before faith, but it is from eternity, being an immanent act in the divine mind, and so an internal and eternal one; as may be concluded,

2b1. From eternal election: the objects of justification are God's elect; "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? it is God that justifies"; that is, the elect. Now if God's elect, as such, can have nothing laid to their charge; but are by God acquitted, discharged, and justified; and if they bore this character of elect from eternity, or were chosen in Christ before the world began; then they must be acquitted, discharged and justified so early, so as nothing could be laid to their charge: besides, by electing grace men were put into Christ, and were considered as in him before the foundation of the world; and if they were considered as in him, they must be considered as righteous or unrighteous; not surely as unrighteous, unjustified, and in a state of condemnation; for "there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ", (Romans 8:1 ) and therefore must be considered as righteous, and so justified: "Justified then we were, says Dr. Goodwin when first elected, though not in our own persons, yet in our Head, as he had our persons then given him, and we came to have a being and an interest in him."

2b2. Justification may well be considered as a branch of election; it is no other, as one expresses it, than setting apart the elect alone to be partakers of Christ's righteousness; and a setting apart Christ's righteousness for the elect only; it is mentioned along with election, as of the same date with it; "Wherein", that is, in the grace of God, particularly the electing grace of God, spoken of before, "he has made us accepted in the beloved" (Ephesians 1:6 ). What is this acceptance in Christ, but justification in him? and this is expressed as a past act, in the same language as other eternal things be in the context, he "has" blessed us, and he "has" chosen us, and "having" predestined us, so he has made us accepted; and, indeed, as Christ as always the beloved of God, and well pleasing to him; so all given to him, and in him, were beloved of God, well pleasing to him, and accepted with him, or justified in him from eternity.

2b3. Justification is one of those spiritual blessings with which the elect are blessed in Christ according to election-grace, before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3,4 ). That justification is a spiritual blessing none will deny; and if the elect were blessed with all spiritual blessings, then with this; and if thus blessed according to election, or when elected, then before the foundation of the world: and this grace of justification must be no small part of that "grace which was given in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world was" (2 Timothy 1:9). We may say, says Dr. Goodwin, of all spiritual blessings in Christ, what is said of Christ, that his goings forth are from everlasting—in Christ we were blessed with all spiritual blessings, (Ephesians 1:3 ) as we are blessed with all other, so with this also, that we were justified then in Christ!

2b4. Christ became a Surety for his people from everlasting; engaged to pay their debts, bear their sins, and make satisfaction for them; and was accepted of as such by God his Father, who thenceforward looked at him for payment and satisfaction, and looked at them as discharged, and so they were in his eternal mind; and it is a rule that will hold good, as Maccovius observes, "that as soon as one becomes a surety for another, the other is immediately freed, if the surety be accepted;" which is the case here and it is but a piece of common prudence, when a man has a bad debt, and has good security for it, to look not to the principal debtor, who will never be able to pay him, but to his good bondsman and surety, who is able; and so Dr. Goodwin observes, that God, in the everlasting transaction with Christ, "told him, as it were, that he would look for his debt and satisfaction of him, and that he did let the sinners go free; and so they are in this respect, justified from all eternity."

2b5. The everlasting transaction, the same excellent writer thinks, is imported in 2 Corinthians 5:19. "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them". And the very learned Witsius is of opinion, "that this act of God may be called, the general justification of the elect." And, indeed, since it was the determination of God, and the scheme and method he proposed to take in Christ for the reconciliation of the elect, not to impute their sins to them, but to his Son, their Surety; then seeing they are not imputed to them, but to him; and if reckoned and accounted to him, then not to them; and if charged to him, then they must be discharged from them, and so justified; and a non-imputation of sin to the elect, is no other than a justification of them; and thus the apostle strongly concludes the imputation of Christ's righteousness; which is the "formalis ratio", or the form of justification, from the non-imputation of sin, and the remission of it (Romans 4:6-8 )."

- excerpt from John Gill's A Body of Doctrinal Divinity
 
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KenH

Well-Known Member
Some more from John Gill's A Body of Doctrinal Divinity:

"2b7a. It is objected, that men cannot be justified before they exist; they must be, before they can be justified; since "non entis nulla sunt accidentia", etc. of a nonentity nothing can be said, nor anything ascribed to it. To which I answer, whatever is in this objection, lies as strongly against eternal election, as against eternal justification; for it may as well be said, how can a man be elected before he exists? he must be before he can be chosen, or be the object of choice. I own, with Maccovius, that this is true of non-entities, that have neither an "esse actu", nor an "esse cognitum", that have neither an actual being, nor is it certain, nor known that they shall have any future being: but though God's elect have not an actual being from eternity, yet it is certain, by the prescience and predetermination of God, that they shall have one; for "known unto God are all his works from the beginning", or from eternity (Acts 15:18 ). And besides this, they have an "esse representativum", a representative being in Christ; which is more than other creatures have, whose future existences are certain; even such a being as makes them capable of being chosen in Christ, and blessed in him before the foundation of the world, and of having grace given them in him before the world was; and why not then of being justified in him? (Ephesians 1:3,4 ; 2 Timothy 1:9). Moreover, as the same writer observes, "Justification is a moral act, which does not require the existence of the subject together with it; but it is enough that it shall exist some time or other."

2b7b. It is further objected, that if God's elect are justified from eternity, then they were not only justified before they themselves existed, but before any sin was committed by them; and it seems absurd that men should be justified from sins before they were committed, or any charge of them brought against them. To which may be replied, that it is no more absurd to say, that God's elect were justified from their sins before they were committed, than it is to say, that they were imputed to Christ, and he died for them, and made satisfaction for them before committed; which is most certainly true of all those that live, since the coming and death of Christ."
 
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Zaatar71

Active Member
John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


According to Calvinism, He who does not believe already has eternal life and is not condemned, he only needs to evidence that with faith at some time point in time.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

According to Calvinism, the one without faith is at peace with God, already saved and very pleasing to God. This person simply needs to evidence that with faith at some point in time.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

According to Calvinism, a person is justified and saved before they believe and confess with their mouth. They only need to evidence that with faith at some point and time.

We could play this all day, but I think that you get the gist of it by now. Does someone care to explain these discrepancies? There a lot more.
Hello Dave,
I hate to spoil this anti cal party you have going on here, But your statements Are all false. Your three "according To Calvinism statements" are totally false and inaccurate, but you and the others can believe them if it helps you think your man centered view is more accurate.

1] No one has eternal life until the moment They are born from above and are given a new heart, and the God given faith and repentance to believe. Jn 5: 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

2] People are not justified and saved, before they are saved from their sins. What you and others confuse is that from the Divine side, God sees those elected as In Christ, and sure to be saved in the Covenant of Redemption. That being said, it takes place in time, during our life here.
Once saved by God, they grow in grace and knowledge.
To understand the Doctrines of grace takes prayer and study. Those with a proud spirit will not submit to God as they should, and consequently can never really find these truths as they should. Those who have a saving faith but are having a proud spirit, or are self righteous will not be granted to know truth as they should, will be spiritually hindered, Handicapped spiritually, and not grow as they should.

Chapter 14: Of Saving Faith
1._____ The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the
Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word; by which also, and by the
administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and
strengthened. ( 2 Corinthians 4:13; Ephesians 2:8; Romans 10:14, 17; Luke 17:5; 1 Peter 2:2; Acts 20:32 )
 
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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
We are discussing a topic on another forum....well, the topic changed to what we are discussing.

What I have learned of Calvinists is that they start with a theory and then ho to the Bibke to extract passages to "support" their theory. In doing so, they rewrite the passages they lift. I mean, not anything close to interpretation or exegesis but unadulterated eisegesis.

The example on the other thread is about election. Their reasoning goes like this - Scripture states that we were once dead in our trespasses which really means that many of those who are dead in their trespasses ate elect...Scrioture says we are elect in Christ which realky means elected to believe in Christ. They ignore passages to the contrary (like 2 Cor 13 and 2 Peter 1 equating the ekect with those who believe and are spiritually alive).

I know many Calvinists who are also Christians. I once was one. But I do wonder if many others have been carried away from Christianity by their philosophy. Maybe this depends on how the philosophy is held (the warning not to be carried away by vain philosophy a warning of philosophy we all may hold to a degree based on the limits of human understanding).


@Charlie24 , the main reason I continue rather than shaking off the dust is that there may be many who stumble on these threads who are not yet carried away. I am absolutely certain that I have encountered many Cslvinists who are not saved, even some with fairly decent doctrine. And I have encountered people with horrible theology who's faith should be an example for us all.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
We are discussing a topic on anither forum....well, the topic changed to what we are discussing.

What I have learned of Calvinists is that they start with a theory and then ho to the Bibke to extract passages to "support" their theory. In doing so, they rewrite the passages they lift. I mean, not anything close to interpretation or exegesis but unadulterated eisegesis.

The example on the other thread is about election. Their reasoning goes like this - Scripture states that we were once dead in our trespasses which really means that many of those who are dead in their trespasses ate elect...Scrioture says we are elect in Christ which realky means elected to believe in Christ. They ignore passages to the contrary (like 2 Cor 13 and 2 Peter 1 equating the ekect with those who believe and are spiritually alive).

I know many Calvinists who are also Christians. I once was one. But I do wonder if many others have been carried away from Christianity by their philosophy. Maybe this depends on how the philosophy is held (the warning not to be carried away by vain philosophy a warning of philosophy we all may hold to a degree based on the limits of human understanding).


@Charlie24 , the main reason I continue rather than shaking off the dust is that there may be many who stumble on these threads who are not yet carried away. I am absolutely certain that I have encountered many Cslvinists who are not saved, even some with fairly decent doctrine. And I have encountered people with horrible theology who's faith should be an example for us all.

Your thoughts are my thoughts, JonC, I have stated many times on these forums that I'm speaking to those who are not certain what to believe, it's for their benefit.

God bless you, JonC, for reminding of that fact!
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
2b. Secondly, Justification is not only before faith, but it is from eternity, being an immanent act in the divine mind, and so an internal and eternal one; as may be concluded,

2b1. From eternal election: the objects of justification are God's elect; "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? it is God that justifies"; that is, the elect. Now if God's elect, as such, can have nothing laid to their charge; but are by God acquitted, discharged, and justified; and if they bore this character of elect from eternity, or were chosen in Christ before the world began; then they must be acquitted, discharged and justified so early, so as nothing could be laid to their charge: besides, by electing grace men were put into Christ, and were considered as in him before the foundation of the world; and if they were considered as in him, they must be considered as righteous or unrighteous; not surely as unrighteous, unjustified, and in a state of condemnation; for "there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ", (Romans 8:1 ) and therefore must be considered as righteous, and so justified: "Justified then we were, says Dr. Goodwin when first elected, though not in our own persons, yet in our Head, as he had our persons then given him, and we came to have a being and an interest in him."

2b2. Justification may well be considered as a branch of election; it is no other, as one expresses it, than setting apart the elect alone to be partakers of Christ's righteousness; and a setting apart Christ's righteousness for the elect only; it is mentioned along with election, as of the same date with it; "Wherein", that is, in the grace of God, particularly the electing grace of God, spoken of before, "he has made us accepted in the beloved" (Ephesians 1:6 ). What is this acceptance in Christ, but justification in him? and this is expressed as a past act, in the same language as other eternal things be in the context, he "has" blessed us, and he "has" chosen us, and "having" predestined us, so he has made us accepted; and, indeed, as Christ as always the beloved of God, and well pleasing to him; so all given to him, and in him, were beloved of God, well pleasing to him, and accepted with him, or justified in him from eternity.

2b3. Justification is one of those spiritual blessings with which the elect are blessed in Christ according to election-grace, before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3,4 ). That justification is a spiritual blessing none will deny; and if the elect were blessed with all spiritual blessings, then with this; and if thus blessed according to election, or when elected, then before the foundation of the world: and this grace of justification must be no small part of that "grace which was given in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world was" (2 Timothy 1:9). We may say, says Dr. Goodwin, of all spiritual blessings in Christ, what is said of Christ, that his goings forth are from everlasting—in Christ we were blessed with all spiritual blessings, (Ephesians 1:3 ) as we are blessed with all other, so with this also, that we were justified then in Christ!

2b4. Christ became a Surety for his people from everlasting; engaged to pay their debts, bear their sins, and make satisfaction for them; and was accepted of as such by God his Father, who thenceforward looked at him for payment and satisfaction, and looked at them as discharged, and so they were in his eternal mind; and it is a rule that will hold good, as Maccovius observes, "that as soon as one becomes a surety for another, the other is immediately freed, if the surety be accepted;" which is the case here and it is but a piece of common prudence, when a man has a bad debt, and has good security for it, to look not to the principal debtor, who will never be able to pay him, but to his good bondsman and surety, who is able; and so Dr. Goodwin observes, that God, in the everlasting transaction with Christ, "told him, as it were, that he would look for his debt and satisfaction of him, and that he did let the sinners go free; and so they are in this respect, justified from all eternity."

2b5. The everlasting transaction, the same excellent writer thinks, is imported in 2 Corinthians 5:19. "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them". And the very learned Witsius is of opinion, "that this act of God may be called, the general justification of the elect." And, indeed, since it was the determination of God, and the scheme and method he proposed to take in Christ for the reconciliation of the elect, not to impute their sins to them, but to his Son, their Surety; then seeing they are not imputed to them, but to him; and if reckoned and accounted to him, then not to them; and if charged to him, then they must be discharged from them, and so justified; and a non-imputation of sin to the elect, is no other than a justification of them; and thus the apostle strongly concludes the imputation of Christ's righteousness; which is the "formalis ratio", or the form of justification, from the non-imputation of sin, and the remission of it (Romans 4:6-8 )."

- excerpt from John Gill's A Body of Doctrinal Divinity

How odd that people that say they trust the word of God do not use the word of God to support their views but instead run to other calvinists to support their calvinist views.
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
We are discussing a topic on another forum....well, the topic changed to what we are discussing.

What I have learned of Calvinists is that they start with a theory and then ho to the Bibke to extract passages to "support" their theory. In doing so, they rewrite the passages they lift. I mean, not anything close to interpretation or exegesis but unadulterated eisegesis.

The example on the other thread is about election. Their reasoning goes like this - Scripture states that we were once dead in our trespasses which really means that many of those who are dead in their trespasses ate elect...Scrioture says we are elect in Christ which realky means elected to believe in Christ. They ignore passages to the contrary (like 2 Cor 13 and 2 Peter 1 equating the ekect with those who believe and are spiritually alive).

I know many Calvinists who are also Christians. I once was one. But I do wonder if many others have been carried away from Christianity by their philosophy. Maybe this depends on how the philosophy is held (the warning not to be carried away by vain philosophy a warning of philosophy we all may hold to a degree based on the limits of human understanding).


@Charlie24 , the main reason I continue rather than shaking off the dust is that there may be many who stumble on these threads who are not yet carried away. I am absolutely certain that I have encountered many Cslvinists who are not saved, even some with fairly decent doctrine. And I have encountered people with horrible theology who's faith should be an example for us all.
Hello John C ,
Having seen what you post in these weeks, I am sure you are not one to ask on these matters at all. From what I can see, you are similar to the poster Van, in that both of you come up with your own thoughts on things. You both claim certain ideas, claim to understand to a degree, but really both of you explain away truth, come up with your own ideas, occasionally mention some people from the past, like Calvin, or Beza, or Spurgeon, but any biblical Calvinist knows, you do not really understand the issues correctly. You think calling everything a theory, then launching into your personal philosophies are a better option. Several object and offer you things which you insulate yourself from. Van just puts in bold print that it is wrong, before he goes off on his sci fi theology. No...I will stick with those who are mainstream. I will leave it to God to sort you non Cals out.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Hello John C ,
Having seen what you post in these weeks, I am sure you are not one to ask on these matters at all. From what I can see, you are similar to the poster Van, in that both of you come up with your own thoughts on things. You both claim certain ideas, claim to understand to a degree, but really both of you explain away truth, come up with your own ideas, occasionally mention some people from the past, like Calvin, or Beza, or Spurgeon, but any biblical Calvinist knows, you do not really understand the issues correctly. You think calling everything a theory, then launching into your personal philosophies are a better option. Several object and offer you things which you insulate yourself from. Van just puts in bold print that it is wrong, before he goes off on his sci fi theology. No...I will stick with those who are mainstream. I will leave it to God to sort you non Cals out.
Hey @Zaatar71 ,

I am sorry you missed the questions I have asked. The reason I ask is I am genuinely curious about people's thought process.

I do not ask about Calvinism because I know Calvinism. I was a Calvinist (perhaps longer than you). I do not know your education but I studied theology to include Calvinism as a graduate student (under a Calvinistic professor). I have read most, if not all, of the Calvinistic theologians. So when it comes to Calvinism I have no questions.

But I do agree that before one engages another they should first understand the other position. You do not know mine because you never asked and I did not volunteer.

Is Calvinism "mainstream"? Yes. It is a minority view within mainstream Christianity. Is my view mainstream? Yes, while not as much a minority as Calvinism it is still not the most popular view.

But truth has never been a popularity contest.

I understand that many gravitate to Calvinism because it offers an "easy believeism" salvation. It is, in fact, the most benign form of Christianity that exists in Christianity today. As human beings we tend to gravitate to shallow and easy "truths". I do not hold that against you. Everybody has to start somewhere.
 
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