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The 'Great Cloud'

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by 3AngelsMom, Jul 18, 2003.

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  1. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

    Any thoughts as to who or what this 'cloud' of witnesses is?

    Guess if you have to. [​IMG]

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
    #1 3AngelsMom, Jul 18, 2003
  2. Chrift

    Chrift New Member

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    Hello Kelly!

    Read through all of Heb. Chapter 11. Then read Heb. 12:1 and you will find your answer.


    God Bless!

    [ July 18, 2003, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: Chrift ]
     
    #2 Chrift, Jul 18, 2003
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Matt 27:52 there is a resurrection at the time Christ is raised. Also - a number of NT writers tell us that the Angels are looking into these things.

    The idea that dead people are looking into this as well (the Dead in Christ - 1Thess 4) those "people" that "have fallen asleep" 1Thess 4:14 are probably not "The witnesses".

    However - Paul might also be speaking in the global unit of time - where all the saints in all ages are examples and witnesses - as certainly they will be when it is all said and done.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #3 BobRyan, Jul 19, 2003
  4. Chrift

    Chrift New Member

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    Please don't make it any more complicated then it needs to be. Hebrews 11 describes this "cloud of witnesses" and 12:1 continues with the words; "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses...".

    God Bless!
     
    #4 Chrift, Jul 19, 2003
  5. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Chrift,

    I did what you said, and I noticed something, that I hadn't noticed before.

    Hebrews 11:1-38 (the by faith list)

    Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (ETERNAL LIFE)
    Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    They will not be made perfect WITHOUT US! That is talking about people who were alive about 2000 years ago. The people who THEY were talking about, some had been dead for 4000 years! And THEY couldn't 'be perfected' (re: 1 Thess 4, 1 Cor 15) without US. Which leads me to believe that we will all be perfected at the same time!

    So as to the cloud of witnesses?

    I'm notorious for doing this, so I don't want to disappoint anyone. ;)

    Cloud of Witnesses:

    "nefos marturon"

    nefos = a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng
    marturon = witness, those who after his example have proved the strength and genuineness of their faith in Christ by undergoing a violent death

    SO, Cloud of Witnesses could be "Multitude of Martyrs", and make a bit more sense. 'Cloud of witnesses' is quite poetic. Those people who were being spoken of were "tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth."

    The reality is that they are a Multitude of Martyrs.

    They are surrounding us.

    We know that.

    Why is the author telling us this? Because THEY cannot be perfected WITHOUT US.

    The POINT here, is that we need to lay aside every WEIGHT, (meaning BURDEN- Jesus said take MY yoke upon you, because His yoke is EASY and HIS BURDEN is light!), and the SIN that so easily BESETS us (meaning SURROUNDS (like quicksand)- Jesus said GO and sin no more!), and for us to RUN with PATIENCE, this RACE that is before us, looking to JESUS, the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our Faith! We must RUN.

    Why? Because the Christian life is not EASY. We must depend upon Jesus, by living in HIS yoke, and living under HIS burden.

    SO that we may run the race that is put before us.

    What's at the end of the race?

    The perfecting of saints, including those who are encircled about us.

    They are here folks. Sleeping.

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
    #5 3AngelsMom, Jul 19, 2003
  6. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    Kelly, you say:

    Yes you are notorious for doing this. :( But my disappointment comes from your not learning from your mistakes. You are taking clear English words from the King James Bible, going back the Greek, and mistranslating them into an English sentence.

    “a great cloud (nefos, a mass of clouds rather than the more common nefelh, a single cloud) of witnesses surrounding us.” _____is more accurate. A cloud means it is above and around us, we are not walking on the great cloud of witnesses in their graves.

    You leave behind any understanding of what a cloud is.…..you change this to a dense multitude, a throng of witnesses in the ground and drop the idea of cloud with a slight of hand with your computer. I recommend that you trust the King James Version translation here or any English translation of your choice. There is no need to mistranslate it by dropping cloud and say it is a throng or dense multitude of dead people in the ground.


    God Bless
     
    #6 Kathryn, Jul 19, 2003
  7. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Kathryn,

    When a word has more than one meaning in the Hebrew or Greek, the definition chosen should reflect the whole of scripture.

    WHERE is this 'cloud' of witnesses?

    You said 'hovering above us'.

    Are you saying that heaven is on earth? And that the dead in Christ are really just floating around in the skies above us?

    The Bible says to STUDY to show yourselves approved, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly deviding the Word of Truth. If the KJV doesn't make sense, or seems to contradict, I go back to the source. As far as other versions are concerned, I don't really use them. I am not a KJV only person or anything, I just trust the KJV more than I do the others, but the original Hebrew and Greek is my first choice for study.

    Multitude of Martrys fits just fine. The previous passages that I made reference to refer to the manner of death these 'witnesses' suffered. They are Martrys. There are so many that the word nephos was used, which means LITERALLY (from the Strongs dictionary) a cloud, or multitude, or throng.

    It is fitting with the whole of Scripture that this multitude that is SURROUNDING US (since we know HEAVEN is NOT on earth) is comprised of people who have died, a martrys death, and sleep in the graves awaiting the resurrection, and their perfection along with the ALIVE in Christ. The Saints.

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
    #7 3AngelsMom, Jul 19, 2003
  8. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    Kelly, you say:
    You say the original Hebrew and Greek is your first choice of study for the Bible, but you do not understand or speak Hebrew or Greek. The KJV is a translation that is as good as any. You are not doing very well taking only one word Hebrew or Greek and changing the meaning and putting it back into an English sentence. You say Strong’s dictionary says it is a cloud, or multitude, or throng. This is not true. It says it is a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng. You can not dismiss the cloud part as you are trying to do. There is no picking and chosing which you want.

    http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK35.htm


    
    nephos
    nef'-os
    apparently a primary word; a cloud:--cloud


    http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3509


    The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

    Strong's Number: 3509 Browse Lexicon
    Original Word Word Origin
    nevfoß apparently a root word
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Nephos 4:902,628
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    nef'-os Noun Neuter

    Definition
    a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng
    used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapour obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapour with some form or shape
    a cloud in the sky

    King James Word Usage - Total: 1
    cloud 1


    “a great cloud (nefos, a mass of clouds rather than the more common nefelh, a single cloud) of witnesses surrounding us.”


    A cloud of witnesses surrounding us is not dead people in the ground as much as you would like it to be. They are souls above the ground surrounding us in heaven. We are not in the ground with dead people. You add the word “or” to Strongs definition. It is not there. Nephos means cloud. If you want to study the bible as your first line of study in Hebrew or Greek first learn the language so all the words are understood in context.




    God Bless
     
    #8 Kathryn, Jul 19, 2003
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