Strangely enough Matt, even the claims of our Lord Jesus had to be verified by the word of God. It doesn't mean that we worship the Bible. But everything about Christ is found in the Bible. So whilst he is the author of that book, he nevertheless is bound by its claims. This is the way we test for false prophets. In fact we can no nothing of Christ if it were not for the Bible. Remember how the apostle Paul. "confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ." (Acts 9:22) How did he do that? By reasoning with them from the scriptures. There was no other way. Look up the word "scriptures" in the NT and see how many times Jesus uses that word in order to establish those things concerning himself. The scriptures must always come first in guiding us into the true worship of God. If our worship of Christ does not tally with what is true of him in the Bible, then that worship must of necessity be false.Matt Black said:
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The Great Protestant Fallacy
- Thread starter Chemnitz
- Start date
So, are you saying that the Bible is 'bigger than Jesus'?
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Ultimately, Christ is the Word. :thumbs: (John 1:1, 14)Eric B said:
Matt,
The only sense in wich that is true is that Christ is indeed alive in every born again person. It has NOTHING to do with some particular organised religious group. "The Church" here on earth is nothing more than all the christians here on earth.
Also, regarding the "Christ vs the scriptures" thing that has come up, what did Christ say over and over and over again while He was teaching 2000 years ago?...
"Is it not written?"
"Have you not read?"
"Is it not written"?
"Have you not read"?
etc etc etc etc etc.
Christ Himself regularly referred to the scriptures when sharing truth.
Mike
The only sense in wich that is true is that Christ is indeed alive in every born again person. It has NOTHING to do with some particular organised religious group. "The Church" here on earth is nothing more than all the christians here on earth.
Also, regarding the "Christ vs the scriptures" thing that has come up, what did Christ say over and over and over again while He was teaching 2000 years ago?...
"Is it not written?"
"Have you not read?"
"Is it not written"?
"Have you not read"?
etc etc etc etc etc.
Christ Himself regularly referred to the scriptures when sharing truth.
Mike
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...in addition, regarding this passage of scripture...
...notice that is says the man of God.
NOT the hierarchy of God, the Church of God, the organisation of God, etc.
The man of God.
To the scriptures, to the scriptures, to the scriptures.
Each and every single one of us, with the Holy Spirit as our guide. To forsake something so important only leads to chaos, confusion and error multiplied. See the Catholic Church as a prime example.
Mike
...notice that is says the man of God.
NOT the hierarchy of God, the Church of God, the organisation of God, etc.
The man of God.
To the scriptures, to the scriptures, to the scriptures.
Each and every single one of us, with the Holy Spirit as our guide. To forsake something so important only leads to chaos, confusion and error multiplied. See the Catholic Church as a prime example.
Mike
Well, they're His words not mine! More seriously, many more millions have come to know Him through His ministry in the Church than did during His 33 years of IncarnationEric B said:
The Scriptures I've quoted disagree with youD28guy said:
I think you'll find that Jesus Himself disagrees with you (Matt 16:18); it's His Church, not just a random collection of Christians
I figured the answer might be something like that.Matt Black said:
I always thought more in terms of the miracles He did, in the context of His saying that.
DT, did you see my last response to you? (p21) I had asked about what you think about the Anglican Church being a "schism", or if you don't argue about that anymore, and what about doctrines such as Augustinianism and filioque.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Matt Black said:
You seem again to be reading more into someone's words than is there. D28guy did not deny that the church is Christ's church, nor did he say that the church is "just a random collection of Christians."
Matt,
If I understand you correctly, you have been saying that "The Church" is some organised religious body, with a God ordained "Liturgical" system of rituals that connect us to God, as opposed to Gods wonderful truth of justification, and entrance into the life of God, through faith alone. Also, that we are not to allow God to teach us through His scriptures, but rather learn from the Church "Hierarchy"...who alone can understand Gods truth. (They then spoon feed us)
You said this...
And I responded...
And you now say...
Well, here are the passages you gave...
Nobody is denying any of that. The christians in Corinth were engaging in idolatry and wanton sin. (verses 7-15) Paul is making clear they they, and we, should not be doing those things. We are christians, as so we should be LIVING like Christians, not like the lost. And he uses our regular gatherings to emphasise that we are brothers and sisters IN CHRIST. And he emphasises our UNITY. And the Lords Supper memorial is a great reminder of that. We are children of God, and Christ LIVES in us. That is the point of the Lords supper memorial. Through faith and faith alone we are placed into Christs body, and He takes up residence IN us.
And praise God for that! But what does that have to do with liturgical religious activities?
Wonderful truth! We evangelicals love that passage. But what does that have to do with liturgical religious activities?
GREAT passage! But what does that have to do with liturgical religious activities, or being spoon fed through some heirarchy? Matt...when it says "the equipping of the saints" it means every one of us, not just some finely robed "Hierarchy" somewhere. God does indeed use good teachers. But the most important teaching they do is to teach others how to hear from, and recieve instruction from, God Himself...though the scriptures. Any good teacher will insist that people do not believe anything he teaches just because he says its true. He will encourage his people to go into the scriptures themseslves to make sure what he or she is sharing is true. To go into the scriptures and learn to be fed from the heavenly teacher...God through Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Of course he is. How does that support your view???
Praise God for that as well. But I dont see how any of this has anything to do with *supposedly* supporting complex litugical religious rituals, or being spoon fed by some "Hierarchy", who *supposedly* can only recieve truth from God?
God bless,
Mike
If I understand you correctly, you have been saying that "The Church" is some organised religious body, with a God ordained "Liturgical" system of rituals that connect us to God, as opposed to Gods wonderful truth of justification, and entrance into the life of God, through faith alone. Also, that we are not to allow God to teach us through His scriptures, but rather learn from the Church "Hierarchy"...who alone can understand Gods truth. (They then spoon feed us)
You said this...
And I responded...
And you now say...
Well, here are the passages you gave...
"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?"
Nobody is denying any of that. The christians in Corinth were engaging in idolatry and wanton sin. (verses 7-15) Paul is making clear they they, and we, should not be doing those things. We are christians, as so we should be LIVING like Christians, not like the lost. And he uses our regular gatherings to emphasise that we are brothers and sisters IN CHRIST. And he emphasises our UNITY. And the Lords Supper memorial is a great reminder of that. We are children of God, and Christ LIVES in us. That is the point of the Lords supper memorial. Through faith and faith alone we are placed into Christs body, and He takes up residence IN us.
"14 For in fact the body is not one member but many."
And praise God for that! But what does that have to do with liturgical religious activities?
"that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel."
Wonderful truth! We evangelicals love that passage. But what does that have to do with liturgical religious activities?
"for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,"
GREAT passage! But what does that have to do with liturgical religious activities, or being spoon fed through some heirarchy? Matt...when it says "the equipping of the saints" it means every one of us, not just some finely robed "Hierarchy" somewhere. God does indeed use good teachers. But the most important teaching they do is to teach others how to hear from, and recieve instruction from, God Himself...though the scriptures. Any good teacher will insist that people do not believe anything he teaches just because he says its true. He will encourage his people to go into the scriptures themseslves to make sure what he or she is sharing is true. To go into the scriptures and learn to be fed from the heavenly teacher...God through Christ and the Holy Spirit.
"For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body."
Of course he is. How does that support your view???
"And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence."
Praise God for that as well. But I dont see how any of this has anything to do with *supposedly* supporting complex litugical religious rituals, or being spoon fed by some "Hierarchy", who *supposedly* can only recieve truth from God?
God bless,
Mike
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I posted the Scripture verses in response to the question not about liturgical practices but about how we encounter Christ outwith the Scriptures; the answer being "through His Body, the Church" - the verses cited amply demonstrate that the Church is indeed the Body of Christ
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Yes, Matt, that's true. However, it was in the context of of your suggestion that we look at the Liturgy of St Mark, which, you said, "also contains the common liturgical elements." That led to my reply (Post 184 in this thread) where I pointed to some differences between what the bible says and what the liturgy says. In what followed, you seemed to accuse me (Post 212) of worshipping and following the bible rather than Christ. This then led to me saying that Christ is not physically present on earth in the same way He was between His birth and ascension. That is the connection (as I see it) between the "liturgical practices" and how Christ is present today.Matt Black said:
Indeed. So I suppose the Scriptures I quoted do give an indirect answer to the question about liturgical practices even though, as Mike correctly points out, the verses themselves contain no reference to such practices.