The greatest error on bb, part deux.

[convicted1]

I posted this on the previous thread, and it was closed before anyone could respond to it.

I have been following this thread somewhat, lurking in the shadows, hesitant to comment, because I can see where both sides of the argument are coming from. Not that I agree with both sides, but I do see where, and why, they take their stand in regards to what they see as logical and illogical. Here is how I see this.


Whenever you look at the things that God has done, such as turn Moses' staff into a serpent, Aaron's rod budding, Peter walking on the water, Peter looking at the crippled man at the gate called Beautiful, and telling him to rise up, etc. Now, to the natural man, all of these things look illogical. But, when you look at them through the spiritual eyes, eyes annointed by the Holy Ghost, you can see how logical they really are. Anything that God does, is logical, whether we see it as such, or not. What I am trying to say is that when God moves, and anoints anything, even an ass to talk, Jesus stating that if the people would hold their peace, the rocks would cry out, etc., that these things are logical, because God empowered them to do these things. I think this verse goes along with the theme of this thread:

1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


It is when we try to see with the wrong set of eyes, we tend to not see what God is really conveying to us through His written Word.

Now, I am wanting to pick this subject up where it was left off......so please carry on.

BTW, I "piggybacked" this previous post in the other thread, from the most wonderful and thought provoking post posted by Brother HoS.

 

[Herald]

Actually I have known quite a few unbelievers who find the Bible logical. It is not logic that escapes these people, it is the ability to believe spiritual truth. Because unbelievers are dead in sin (Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13) they are not able to appropriate spiritual truth by faith. The word for "dead" in both passages is the Greek word nekros. It means dead as in a corpse. There is a reason Paul used that specific word. Someone who is dead is incapable of doing anything. That is the condition of the sinner when he encounters spiritual truth. He may understand the words of the Bible, but the truth escape him because he is dead to spiritual things. Apart from God doing a unilateral work of grace in his heart, the sinful man would never be able to understand and believe (Eph. 2:4-9).

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually I have known quite a few unbelievers who find the Bible logical. It is not logic that escapes these people, it is the ability to believe spiritual truth. Because unbelievers are dead in sin (Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13) they are not able to appropriate spiritual truth by faith. The word for "dead" in both passages is the Greek word nekros. It means dead as in a corpse. There is a reason Paul used that specific word. Someone who is dead is incapable of doing anything. That is the condition of the sinner when he encounters spiritual truth. He may understand the words of the Bible, but the truth escape him because he is dead to spiritual things. Apart from God doing a unilateral work of grace in his heart, the sinful man would never be able to understand and believe (Eph. 2:4-9).

I would submit that just as satan and the Demons "know" who Jesus is, they cannot "know" Him in a saving fashion, by place faith in him!

Similiar way, a sinner can "know" the facts in the bible, and "know" of jesus, but NOT inn a saving fashion thru faith in Him, nor can really understand the soititual principles of the bible!

 

[mont974x4]

I would submit that just as satan and the Demons "know" who Jesus is, they cannot "know" Him in a saving fashion, by place faith in him!

Similiar way, a sinner can "know" the facts in the bible, and "know" of jesus, but NOT inn a saving fashion thru faith in Him, nor can really understand the soititual principles of the bible!

Agreed. When we really get down to study words like know and believe we find that by definition and context there is a very real difference between knowing and really knowing. One is all head knowledge while the other is life changing. The same can be said between simply hearing and really listening.

Generally speaking all people have eyes and ears, but not everyone has eyes the see and ears that hear.

 

[percho]

Agreed. When we really get down to study words like know and believe we find that by definition and context there is a very real difference between knowing and really knowing. One is all head knowledge while the other is life changing. The same can be said between simply hearing and really listening.

Generally speaking all people have eyes and ears, but not everyone has eyes the see and ears that hear.

Therefore how were the eyes and ears of Paul opened just before he arrived at Damascus? By any effort of his own? By any belief which came from him? No and I say again no, God through his Son Jesus Christ called Paul out of unbelief unto belief opening both his eyes to see and ears to hear about the faith by which he was being called and by which he would be saved.

 

[mont974x4]

Therefore how were the eyes and ears of Paul opened just before he arrived at Damascus? By any effort of his own? By any belief which came from him? No and I say again no, God through his Son Jesus Christ called Paul out of unbelief unto belief opening both his eyes to see and ears to hear about the faith by which he was being called and by which he would be saved.

Yep. That is confirmed when Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ. No man revealed the truth to him. It was God.


There is a great deal of pressure in desiring to be a faithful preacher of the Word. I thank God that convincing and convicting people of the truth is not our job too.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yep. That is confirmed when Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ. No man revealed the truth to him. It was God.


There is a great deal of pressure in desiring to be a faithful preacher of the Word. I thank God that convincing and convicting people of the truth is not our job too.

yes, for we are to be spokesman for Him, but ONLY the Holy Spirit can grant sinners 'ears to hear, hearts to receive/minds to believe!"

 

[psalms109:31]

If we have come to the logical truth of Jesus, then we are no longer a unbeliever. There is no way to see the truth of all Jesus has done for us and walk away.

Jesus word is spirit and life to a Dead man. We are first bid to eat and drink and then say we have a life. It is the sick that need medicine not the well.

Saul could of walked away a Deadman, blind just like the young rich ruler.

Life is in Christ not in us.

 

[mont974x4]

Do you really think Saul/Paul could have walked away? I cannot find anyone in Scripture who was called by God that was able to walk away from Him.

 

[webdog]

Do you really think Saul/Paul could have walked away? I cannot find anyone in Scripture who was called by God that was able to walk away from Him.

Jonah? He was eventually persuaded after being saved but he still disobeyed.

 

[psalms109:31]

Do you really think Saul/Paul could have walked away? I cannot find anyone in Scripture who was called by God that was able to walk away from Him.

the young rich ruler was told to sell his things and followed Him. He walked away because what he had was more important Then the truth and he remained blind

 

[convicted1]

Actually I have known quite a few unbelievers who find the Bible logical. It is not logic that escapes these people, it is the ability to believe spiritual truth. Because unbelievers are dead in sin (Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13) they are not able to appropriate spiritual truth by faith. The word for "dead" in both passages is the Greek word nekros. It means dead as in a corpse. There is a reason Paul used that specific word. Someone who is dead is incapable of doing anything. That is the condition of the sinner when he encounters spiritual truth. He may understand the words of the Bible, but the truth escape him because he is dead to spiritual things. Apart from God doing a unilateral work of grace in his heart, the sinful man would never be able to understand and believe (Eph. 2:4-9).

Let's not take this thread down a different trail, okay Brother Herald. I'll start another thread to address what "dead" means.

 

[convicted1]

Do you really think Saul/Paul could have walked away? I cannot find anyone in Scripture who was called by God that was able to walk away from Him.

Jonah? He was eventually persuaded after being saved but he still disobeyed.

the young rich ruler was told to sell his things and followed Him. He walked away because what he had was more important Then the truth and he remained blind

*****chirping crickets*****

 

[convicted1]

Therefore how were the eyes and ears of Paul opened just before he arrived at Damascus? By any effort of his own? By any belief which came from him? No and I say again no, God through his Son Jesus Christ called Paul out of unbelief unto belief opening both his eyes to see and ears to hear about the faith by which he was being called and by which he would be saved.

I am in the "FW Camp" and I agree with this post 100%. I know of no one on this board, and especially me, that believes otherwise. Y'all must think we made up some new gospel to follow....or sumptin'......

 

[convicted1]

Agreed. When we really get down to study words like know and believe we find that by definition and context there is a very real difference between knowing and really knowing. One is all head knowledge while the other is life changing. The same can be said between simply hearing and really listening.

Generally speaking all people have eyes and ears, but not everyone has eyes the see and ears that hear.

Again, I am in the "FW Camp", and I adhere to this as well.

 

[convicted1]

yes, for we are to be spokesman for Him, but ONLY the Holy Spirit can grant sinners 'ears to hear, hearts to receive/minds to believe!"

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

If we have come to the logical truth of Jesus, then we are no longer a unbeliever. There is no way to see the truth of all Jesus has done for us and walk away.

Jesus word is spirit and life to a Dead man. We are first bid to eat and drink and then say we have a life. It is the sick that need medicine not the well.

Saul could of walked away a Deadman, blind just like the young rich ruler.

Life is in Christ not in us.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Luke2427]

I posted this on the previous thread, and it was closed before anyone could respond to it.



Now, I am wanting to pick this subject up where it was left off......so please carry on.

BTW, I "piggybacked" this previous post in the other thread, from the most wonderful and thought provoking post posted by Brother HoS.

The thing some of you are missing has to do with this "from our perspective" thing you keep purporting.

Our perspective has nothing to do with it.

Logic is not subjective.

Something cannot be something and NOT be that something at the same time irrespective of perspective.

A rock cannot be a rock and at the same time NOT be a rock- period. It has nothing to do with perspective.

The thing that is confusing some of you is your mixing of the laws of nature with the laws of logic.

You think it is "illogical" for a man to walk on water. Well, it is not. Logic has nothing to do with whether or not a man can walk on water.

Logic has to do with the fact that water cannot BE water and NOT be water at the same time.

Then some of you miss it because you think God does not have to abide by the laws of logic while employing as proof for that the Trinity. You say the Trinity violates the laws of logic "from our perspective".

No, it does not. not at all.

If the Trinity doctrine taught that God was one God and three Gods all at the same time- it would be illogical.

Of course that is not the doctrine of the Trinity.

If the Trinity doctrine taught that God was one person and three persons at the same time- that would be illogical.

Of course that is not the doctrine of the Trinity.

Both of these teachings would be illogical because they violate the law of identity- something must be what it is- If it is one it cannot be three (in the same sense). It violates the law of the excluded middle- it cannot be true that it is one and not be true that it is one at the same time (in the same sense). And it violates the law of non-contradiction. It cannot be one and NOT be one at the same time (in the same sense).

But the doctrine of the Trinity is perfectly logical because it teaches that God is ONE BEING consisting of three persons.

The Trinity is one IN A DIFFERENT SENSE than He is three.



There is NOTHING about God that violates the laws of logic because the laws logic are HIS laws- his nature. They come from him.

And if your theology violates them then your theology is false and should be tossed away with great rapidity.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

This simple truth bears repeating:

Logic is not subjective.

 

[OldRegular]

Again, I am in the "FW Camp", and I adhere to this as well.

Time has certainly changed things in the ORB Church. Freewill Baptists were not thought too highly of amongst the ORB's when I lived back in the mountains.