THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION - MARY BORN WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN???

What's original sin?

 

I just had an interesting mental image. Remember the Duracell Battery commercials with the bunny?


Added:
(this is one of those "inside jokes")

 

Does original sin keep us from God's grace just like regular sin?

 

I think the idea is that Adam's sin has resulted in a predelection for all humans to have a tendancy to sin. We can't escape original sin. However, by being born again, we can overcome it. Whereas, with sin in general, we will sin both before and after being born again. We are sinners before and after being born again.

 

rbrent,

What's your real first name? You can even provide an alternative.. addressing you as "rbrent" is a bit too formal.

Original Sin means that one is born with the privation of sanctifying grace in their soul. Rather than a positive quality, Original Sin is a lack thereof. It's an emptiness. It's the living without the indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity in one's soul.

In Luke 1:28, Gabriel addresses Mary with the Greek perfect past participle, kecharitomene, which literally means:

YOU WHO HAVE BEEN FULLY GRACED.

This is an action that has been fully completed in the past. Christians have understood this, from apostolic times, to mean that Mary was given the fullness of the indwelling presence of God - his grace - from somewhere in her infancy.

This, brother, is an interpretation of Scripture, which goes back to the Apostles. The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception is the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture, and all you have to combat it with is your own interpretation, which is not authoritative because you are a random individual without the apostolic laying on of hands, which was an ancient Israelite symbol of the passing on of apostolic authority. The question is one of interpretation. Who's interpretation shall I follow? rbrents? Or, the universal union of those authoritative episkopoi who trace their authority back to Jesus Christ himself who said:

"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).

If Mary was Immaculately Conceived and had no original sin and was not a sinner, why did she say in Luke 1:47 "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior."

Mary was saved at her conception.

Mary's son is her own Saviour.

 

Just for the record, no matter what the catholic church teaches, Mary WAS a virgin when Jesus was placed in her womb.

But after He was born she had other kids. So she was no longer a virgin.

I have no problem with her being called the blessed virgin, as long as we reilize that was about her first pregnancy, and not about others that came after that.

Working for HIM,

Tam,

 

And no, she was not born without origional sin! She was born just like all the rest of us. Placed inside her mother in the good old natural way.

Tam,

Have a good day!

 

John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


I Jn 4:1-3
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Hi Tam,

You wrote, "But after He was born she had other kids. So she was no longer a virgin."

Dr. Richard J. Bauckham, Protestant professor of New Testament at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland, received his M.A. & Ph.D. at Cambridge. His profile can be found here:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/bauck1.html

and his published works can be found here:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/bauck2.html

Bauckham, in "The Brothers and Sisters of Jesus: An Epiphanian Response to John P. Meier," Catholic Biblical Quarterly 56, no. 4 (1994): 686-700, defends the perpetual virginity of Mary from a purely historical-critical Biblical point-of-view as a Protestant Biblical scholar.

You also wrote, "And no, she was not born without origional sin! She was born just like all the rest of us."

Do you understand the implications of what you just said? If all are born with Original Sin (which I agree with, with the exception of Mary), then infants need to be saved.

Christians, from the beginning, have understood that salvation comes by being united to the Paschal Mystery of Jesus Christ Through baptism (Cf. Rom 6:3ff) and even infants need the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

 

Know what? I think this is enough of a different subject that i am going to start a new Topic and leave this one to rbrent, since he is on one subject and this is really another

See you there!

working for Him

Tam,

 

And Mary did not need salvation?
Why would a pope whom you refer to as "Holy Father" need salvation and Mary doesn't?

Note:
This man is saying that his "Holy Father" (pope) who is the Vicar of Christ that Pope Leo referred to as "taking the place of God Almighty on earth" ) needs salvation but this mere woman (Mary) does not !!

 

rbrent,

Your most recent post above demonstrates that you have not been reading my responses to you on this section of BaptistBoard. In making posts, you must deal with those who disagree with you if you want to command an audience.

You wrote, "The verses do not say about original sin and Mary, that “it never was in her soul.”"

You still don't even know what Original Sin is, even though I have already defined it for you.

If you can't define Original Sin, then how can you make any positive statements concerning it in relation to Mary?

 

Rbent,
Do you believe in Original Sin? Most Protestants I have talked to do not. Which of course makes this whole disussion ridiculous. You guys should be saying "of course Mary was born without OS. Everybody is, don't you know.". But your hatred of Catholicism will not allow you to see such a "logical" arguement from your own perspective. I find this very amusing.

Blessings

 

Everyone born into this world - including Mary - but not the Lord Jesus, inherited their sin nature from their physical earthly father, through Adam, according to Romans 5:12.

Since Jesus did not have a human father, JESUS did not have a sin nature.

What most Protestants you have talked to believe, is not important in this discussion.

What is important is “What do the scriptures say?” </font>[/QUOTE]Well first of all OS is not just about our sin nature so your applying a definitino that is foriegn to the concept of Catholicism to it to try and refute it. Original sin states that the child is guilty of sin passed on and imprinted on his soul from Adam. We say that Mary was without this stain. Your definition really only addresses the doctrine of IC in that Mary remained without sin which is a logical conclusion if she did not have the stain of OS, i.e. Sin nature that comes from our fallen state due to Adam's sin. So as I stated before, no belief in OS (as it is defined by the Catholic Church) you have no arguement. You do of course deny that God could make another person who was in the same state as Adam and Eve in the garden which is of course contrary to his omnipotence. Further do you believe that Adam and Eve had to sin? Can the grace of God prevent one from sinning as well as save them from sin?

Blessings