The Imputation

Is the born again the exact moment of that imputation or...

I believe the experience of being born again is the realization in the individual by the Holy Spirit revealing to that person the truth of the imputation of Christ's Righteousness in eternity past.

Bro. Dallas Eaton
Matt. 26.53-58

 

Brother Glen, are you saying that someone is saved before he believes the gospel? Before he is born again?

 

With respect to these things the word of God teaches, among other things, that...

"Born again" is nowhere in the Bible said to be an experience, nor by way of inference can such be gleaned therefrom. And experience is something one experiences. Regeneration is not experienced. An example of people who continuously refer to "born again" as an experience would be charismatics. They are such who can pinpoint the exact minute or hour of their claimed "born again experience". Such people are deceived and manifestly ignorant of the truth. Regeneration having taken place in a person (by the Spirit of God operating secretly) is in due time realized by its manifest fruits. The Bible lists many of the fruits of regeneration. An example would be the beginning of Matt. chapter 5.

3. Blessed are the destitute in the spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens.
4. Blessed are the mourning ones, for they shall be comforted.
5. Blessed are the humble, for they shall inherit the earth.
6. Blessed are those hungering and thirsting for the righteousness, for they shall be filled.

The undeservedly regenerated individual at the latest gains assurance and certainty of eternal life being his portion at the point of the true Gospel of grace coming into his heart and mind and conscience in power and in Holy Spirit, 1Thess. 1:4-6. In some other place the Bible teaches that Christ brought life and immortality or incorruptibility to light to His people by means of the Gospel. Not that the Gospel is the means of imparting life, but that Christ brought life to light by it. The Bible does not teach the error of Gospel regeneration. Persistency in the error of gospel regeneration IMO clearly constitutes heresy. The Gospel revealed in the Bible does not impart a knowledge of justification having taken place before the world began or in eternity when it is applied by the Spirit of Christ in resurrection power in conversion. The Bible Gospel is Calvary- or cross-centered time-wise, not before-the-foundation-of-the-world-centered, time-wise. The evangelical false gospel is centered in justification before God's bar of justice occuring at the point of subjective faith being acted Christ-ward. Such an act of faith is an example of "believing in vain", 1Cor. 15:2. Proponents of said perverse gospel may say things like "when you believe on Jesus Christ God will justify you". This notion contradicts many revealed Scriptures, e.g. Rom. 3:24, and Rom. 5:19, and Rom. 4:25 etc. A doctrine of justification which is unable to harmonize all of the teaching of the Bible respecting justification in all its bearings is unbiblical and thus erroneous and heretical.

As for God in time regenerating His elect sheep some wiser man of the past said that the Spirit of God always operates under the imputed righteousness of Christ. This harmonizes with the fact of justification before God being a "justification of life", Rom. 5:18. Meaning that regeneration by the Spirit of Christ is always subordinate to the imputation of Christ's perfect righteousness, which must have preeminence. Where Christ's righteousness has not been divinely imputed there can be no quickening by the divine Spirit. And where there has been no quickening by the Spirit there often abounds all kinds of unbiblical notions respecting vital points of doctrine. This is solemn indeed to contemplate. Christendom today is a very sad and deplorable thing. It seems like God the Lord is very much withholding His reviving and quickening influences, and His power. Apostasy is abounding all around, round and about. The teachers and prophets that be are running unsent. Paul also warned of such when he wrote to Timothy, 2Tim. 3:1 ff.

3:1 And know thou this, that in the last days grievous times will be at hand!
3:2 For the men shall be self-loving, money-loving, presumptuous boasters, arrogant, blaspheming, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3:3 Without affection to kindred, implacable, slanderous, incontinent, ungentle, void of love for what is good,
3:4 Betrayers, headlong, having been besotted with pride, pleasure-loving rather than God-loving,
3:5 Ones having a form of godliness, yet having denied the power of it through contradiction. Be thou turning away thyself also from these!
3:6 For from among these are the ones entering into the homes, and captivating the silly women having been ladened with sins, being led along by divers lusts,
3:7 Ever learning and never being able to come unto full knowledge of the truth.
3:8 And in what manner Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, on this wise also these are opposing themselves to the truth, men having been utterly corrupted in the mind, reprobate concerning the faith;
3:9 But however they shall not advance further, for their *folly shall be fully manifest to all, as also that of those two became.

May God put forth His power to the end His word may be a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit. And may He be pleased to bring forth the precious from the vile like as in days of old. Amen.

Harald

 

Clue! No one is saved by the cross, the cross is a killing device. To our knowledge, no one came down from the cross alive! There is no salvation in death!

Jesus, when dying said, "IT IS FINISHED!" Meaning that the final piece of the puzzle is now in place, ATONEMENT for the sins of the world was accomplished by Jesus' death. Atonement for sins is the reason Jesus had to die on the cross, and is in reality the reason he was sent to dwell among us. He is, afterall, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. Atonement is not salvation! No one was saved because of the death of Jesus on the Cross! But Atonement enables Salvation by paying the penalty for sin so that we are not judged not-salvific by sin. Consider that ones' sins may be greater that another's sins. Does that not set up a condition for boasting?

Jesus, while living told us that salvation is by believing in Him alone. Faith is a condition for which there can be no boasting, whether boasting be related to sins, or works. Whether it be, "I was saved from worse sins than you!", or, "I did greater works than you"! Those sound the same to God! It is human boasting. But If you are saved by Faith under Grace, what have you to boast about? All who are saved are saved by the same amount of Grace, the same amount of faith, the same Savior. There is then, not one thing that man can boast about! Man did nothing to obtain salvation except believe in Jesus and accept, as one accepts a gift, that which Jesus did for us. Neither 'believing' nor 'accepting' are works that man does, they are conditions of receiving from God. No, man does not have to be "preconditioned" by regeneration in order to believe or accept. Once one believes and accepts, he is then ready to be regenerated, that is, made into a new creation. One who is wholly acceptable unto God, because it is God who does the regenerating!

Jesus said, "Whosoever believeth..." then clearly stated that those who do believe are not judged, but those who do not believe are judged already by their unbelief. Not one mention of blood, not one mention of death, not one mention of works, etc. For while God's grace prevails, we are saved through our faith in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah. When will we all finally accept that Jesus is truly the Son of God, the Messiah, and therefore accept HIS words in lieu of the words of all who try to explain Him?

There is nothing to be "imputed", except the truth revealed to us by God's Holy Word. It is that "imputed truth", quickened within us by the Holy Spirit, that persuades us to believe in Jesus unto our salvation.

Jesus said that it is so simple as to confound the wise. KISS...Keep it simple, stupid! The Gospel message is, in its simplest form, strong enough to overcome the greatest wisdom, and the strongest resistance of those willing to hear.

 

Salvation was not finished on the cross. That is not what Christ meant by, "It is finished". How do we know that? Because in Rom. 4:26, it says:

He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

There is no salvation apart from the resurrection of Christ from the dead. Therefore, salvation could not have been done yet.

 

to wit the redemption of our bodies...Amen brother.

Bro. Dallas Eaton
Matt. 26.53-58

 

Yes! You need to BELIEVE on Christ to be born again!

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John1:12)

And how can they believe in him, except they know the gospel (i.e. that Jesus is the only way to save them)?

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Romans10:13&14)

Whether they find this out from hearing or reading or brail or whatever, what matters is believing on him, and calling upon his name!

Surely "the gospel" is ABOUT Jesus; it is not Jesus himself? Mark 1:1 says "the gospel of Jesus Christ" - not "the gospel called Jesus Christ"!!!

Jesus saved me. But that was only after I was told about his death and resurection, and I believed it. Are you and Harald seriously advocating that someone is saved before he believes? If this is so, why does the scripture say "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shlt be saved"? Or, "whosever believeth in him should not perish"? Or, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith"? I have met many Calvinists, but never any that argue salvation comes apart from faith. Surely this is a false gospel?

 

Sorry - I didn't mean to offend you, Brother Glen!

So do you think that such verses as John 3:16 do not refer to eternal salvation? After all, it says "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" - which is obviously a reference to the belief of the individual.

Are you refering to Romans 11:28? As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. If you read it in context, surely it's saying that Israel were blinded so as to bring the gospel to the gentiles ("enemies for your sakes"), but that God has still chosen that all Israel will be saved, and that they will be "grafted in" again ("beloved for the father's sakes")?

I think I know what you mean - like when the Christians in Corinth got ill and died for doing the Lord's Supper unworthily? But surely you don't believe that good and bad cirmcumstances are always results of good or bad actions? After all, Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)

Brother Glen, we had this discussion some time ago in the Theology section, and I don't want to hijack this thread to talk about that. However, I'll answer your question: they are judged for their works: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor 5:10)

I agree. But I think they can lose their place in the kingdom.

[ June 24, 2003, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Bartholomew ]

 

Brethren, just a few thoughts concerning our heavenly mansion(s).

in verse two above 'house' we have:

oikia
oy-kee'-ah
From G3624; properly residence (abstractly), but usually (concretely) an abode (literally or figuratively); by implication a family (especially domestics): - home, house (-hold).


note: abstractly-- a residence
note: concretely-- an abode; the abode of God and note below these is given this is literally or figuratively and by implication a family--(especially domestics).

I believe these things would teach in accordance with what Bro. Glenn has stated.

Having said these things, I will add, in heaven is where the family of God from all ages shall gather.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton
Matt. 26.53-58

 

Tyndale, I gave a reasonable answer to your claim that salvation was accomplished on the cross.

You did not deal with anything I said and proceeded to imply I am in darkness.

If that is what debate is, then I will refrain.

 

Hi brother Glen! No, I wasn't actually talking about heaven, but about Christ's millennial kingdom. I believe many Chrsitians will be prevented from entering and banished for the duration of the 1000 years. But that's another issue, for another thread.

 

Bartholomew,
I think you make a good point. I also believe in the millenial reign of Christ; but I view this time as a period of rewards and this dependent upon several factors. I don't think that Christians will be banished from this kingdom whose city will be New Jerusalem. But I do think nationally this will be seen accomplished among the nations.

But these things require more study than what I have been able to give to them of late.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton
Matt. 26.53-58

 

Frogman, How can that be? The New Jerusalem does not appear until after this heaven and earth pass away and the New Heaven and Earth are established.

The millenial reign of Jesus will take place on this present heaven and earth.

Bartholomew, The millenial reign of the Christ will not exclude any who are living on the earth and those that Jesus brings back with him to reign with him. Every creature on the earth will be subject to Jesus the Christ.

There will be many who do not come back with the Christ, but they are those who died not believing in Jesus. They will remain in waiting for the resurrection unto judgment! And yes, there will be those who will not believe in Jesus while he is reigning on this earth. Who will also be judged.