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The Invasion of Roman Catholic Bibles

Nazaroo

New Member
I'm quoting this recent post by Mr. Scrivener from TC-Alternate List:

Dear David and list:

You asked a very important and complex question:

"Someone please explain to me how the Nestle reading is more Roman Catholic than
the TR reading, not only in this passage, but in any passage."
- David Palmer

This may be an exasperating question, but its no joke.

In our modern 'politically correct' climate, where the pressure is on high, to
avoid impugning motives to individuals and groups, especially without evidence,
it has certainly become the fashion to downplay, deny, and even engage in
historical revisionism in regard to the ongoing actions of power groups like the
RC church hierarchy.

But it cannot be credibly denied, that rogue and clandestine elements within the
RC community are indeed guilty of systemic, conscious and deliberate, planned
attacks and attempts to derail and influence the course of the Reformation, and
modern Christian development.

In regards to what must be regarded as blatantly evil and criminal activity
today, we may mention the Inquisitions, witch-burning, the invasion of the
Spanish Armada, the attempt to blow up the English Parliament, and many attempts
to ban the Bible, book burnings, and countless massacres of innocent 'heretical'
groups, as well as attempts to control translation and interpretation of the
Holy Scriptures.

Of course, it must also be admitted (though it hardly ever is), that Protestant
power blocks are also guilty of some similar crimes. Notorious among these are
the persecutions of reformers like the Puritans, Baptists, stake burnings of
witches and trouble-makers, the treatment of the Irish, etc. etc.

In regards to such activities being conscious and deliberate, planned and covert
'conspiracies', we need only turn to such publicly documented events as the
Council of Trent, and the banning of bibles for clear statements of motive and
intent.

How does all this massive and often violent political/religious activity affect
Textual Criticism?

It clearly does, whether rightly or wrongly, whether coherently or incoherently.
For we must first look at what happened *historically*.

The RC church, and on various levels and at various times also the developing
Reformers (e.g. the Church of England), all wanted to both suppress and also
control the Holy scriptures and their interpretation. The Roman Catholics for
their part, for a long time interfered with the distribution of Protestant
Bibles, while attempting to supplant them with texts and translations of their
own.

It can hardly be denied that even the KJV Bible, was in part an attempt to
suppress extreme Protestant interpretations and marginal notes found in earlier
Bibles, which not only named and blasted the Roman Catholics and 'Papism', but
also the C of E priesthood and power-base. It was a 'damage control' project.

If actually compare texts between Protestant and Catholic translations, we see
both a manipulation of the translation/interpretation, and a manipulation of the
underlying text. While the distinctions are not always clear-cut or consistent,
there are obvious trends in the two main approaches to the NT.

1) Protestant Bibles tended to be literal, and strove for clarity and
understanding, while being influenced by doctrines and beliefs of the Reformers,
notably, Calvinistic and anti-RC views etc.

2) Roman Catholic Bibles tended to consiously translate so as to (a) support
Romanist interpretations on things like penance, absolution, the Eucharist etc.,
and (b) obscurantize other passages which were not convenient to organized
religion and authority.

These tendencies, while not consistent or simple in the case of NT textual
criticism, also nonetheless show trends and 'clusters' of positions and
practices which produce distinct texts.

1) The Protestants tended to substitute the authority of the Bible for the
authority of the (RC) 'church', and so there were some strong fundamentalist
elements within Protestantism, such as the Puritans and the Trinitarians, who
strongly supported the traditional (Byz.) readings.

2) Another looser group of more radical and perhaps 'paranoid' Protestants, a
less organized and more diverse, tended to push the most extreme and peculiar
readings, found in the minority of MSS and in older and more idiosyncratic
texts. This group of critics were by accident or otherwise, mostly Unitarians
and others, from Deists to agnostics, 'rationalists', 'anti-supernaturalists',
and even atheistic skeptics.

3) The Roman Catholics were also 'split' significantly on the issue of the text:
One group of more conservative and probably more sincere RCs also supported the
traditional text, and saw the more radical and liberal critics as heretics and
corrupters of Traditional Christianity.

4) Another group of more opportunistic and devious, more suspect conspirators,
originally in large part culled from the Jesuits and other organizations, also
sided with the radicals. These people saw the main enemy of Roman Catholic
authority as the Protestant Bible itself, which was correctly perceived as a
plausible corrective to RC dogma, practice/tradition, and 'corruption'. This
group engaged in a two-prong attack upon Protestantism (the main general target)
through a direct attack upon the Protestant Bible (the A.V.).

a) On the one hand, the Protestant Bibles were attacked directly as 'bad
translations', misdirected, over-interpreted, 'too-literal', while RC versions
were promoted as 'authoritative', traditional (via Apostolic Succession of both
authority and doctrine), and true to authentic Christianity.

b) On the other hand, RCs, originally in part founders and funders of
universities and centers of learning, had always maintained an almost oppressive
influence upon both interpretation and publication, and tended to dominate
influencial posts. Here RC scholars, some openly RC, and others who were Jesuit
inspired 'stealth scholars', promulgated RC doctrine and subverted Protestant
expansion.

c) At the same time, the RC conservative factions were losing control of both
the church and Europe, and academia. At first in Protestant strongholds like
Germany, Switzerland, even France, and finally even in RC countries.

d) Academia was infiltrated, subverted and eventually dominated by radicals,
heretics and non-Christians of every flavor. These groups also wanted to
'dethrone the Bible', which they saw as an oppressive and superstitious group of
documents having little value to modern scientific man.

e) From the original Protestant Reformers' and Puritans' viewpoint, there was
forged a truly demonic alliance between Roman Catholics, who wanted to
short-circuit the Reformation, and Apostates, who wanted to short-circuit all
Christianity. These groups worked together to undermine the authority of, and
diffuse the power of the Bible in the hands of the ordinary man.

It is clear from this sketch of historic development, that (ironically,) groups
with the RC church and radical apostates had similar goals, and were able to
work together against a perceived 'common enemy', the Bible. They did this by
clever manipulation of what should have been unbiased scientific investigation
of textual transmission, in order to attack the traditional NT text and supplant
it with a less Protestant, and more 'Catholic-friendly' version, built out of
inferior copies.

Ironically, now, in the modern versions, Protestants hold in their hands for the
first time since the Reformation, what is essentially a Roman Catholic
lectionary.

mr.scrivener
 

Melanie

Active Member
Site Supporter
Goodness me what a tirade, and here I was thinking how HARD it is to find a Catholic Bible in essentially "Catholic" supply shops, and,( be still my beating heart the horror I felt) when at a Catholic church there was a large and very prominently placed expurgated Bible.:type:
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Reading other post by Nazaroo, I believe he is in the KJ Only crowd. He put forth a decent argument for the Byzantine Text over other MSS for the New Testament. Though I did have questions for him on that related topic (statistic argument for the Textus Receptus) I felt that some one so committed to his view I would just get fanatical answers inspired by Peter Ruckman. Which wouldn't be helpful in a productive debate.

The thing that kills me with this quote is the author's full belief in conspiracy theories. I'm supprised the Illuminati weren't brought up. And he terrified me to look under my bed for Jesuit boogymen. Otherwise there are some points mentioned which should be considered.
 

Nazaroo

New Member
Reading other post by Nazaroo, I believe he is in the KJ Only crowd. He put forth a decent argument for the Byzantine Text over other MSS for the New Testament. Though I did have questions for him on that related topic (statistic argument for the Textus Receptus) I felt that some one so committed to his view I would just get fanatical answers inspired by Peter Ruckman. Which wouldn't be helpful in a productive debate.

Sorry, I'm not KJVOnly.

I don't like any English translations,
although the KJV is probably the most honest overall.
Also, I'm a scientist, not a textual critic.
I prefer evidence, logic, and rules of probability.
Not hysteria, half-wit reasoning and homos.

The thing that kills me with this quote is the author's full belief in conspiracy theories. I'm supprised the Illuminati weren't brought up. And he terrified me to look under my bed for Jesuit boogymen. Otherwise there are some points mentioned which should be considered.

Scrivener is a thorough skeptic, not a conspiracy theorist.

He's far more jaded than I am, but he's very sober.
And often witty. His final line was priceless:

Mr. Scrivener: "Ironically, now, in the modern versions, Protestants hold in their hands for the
first time since the Reformation, what is essentially a Roman Catholic
lectionary."

What makes it so funny is its true.
 

billwald

New Member
The Mass is mostly a bunch of bible verses strung together with very little commentary.

I have been using a Jerusalem (Catholic) Bible for 20 years.

I predict another few decades and the KJVO people will be KJVSO (Scofield) people.
 

Nazaroo

New Member
So what is your solution for those of us who only speak English?

I'd recommend the Authorized Version (KJ), or Young's Literal Translation (for the NT), or the KJV2000, or the NKJV, all of which for the most part reproduce an accurate translation of the NT for English readers.

My personal likes and dislikes are simply not relevant.
I am fortunate to be able to read Greek well enough to bypass translations. Not everyone has the time or desire to acquire that skill. I sympathize.

peace
Nazaroo
 

Amy.G

New Member
I'd recommend the Authorized Version (KJ), or Young's Literal Translation (for the NT), or the KJV2000, or the NKJV, all of which for the most part reproduce an accurate translation of the NT for English readers.

peace
Nazaroo

Thanks. ..............
 

JTornado1

Member
I have the Bible in over 40 translations, and my two favorite Catholic translations are the Ronald Knox translation and the Jerusalem Bible. :thumbsup:
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
I'd recommend the Authorized Version (KJ), or Young's Literal Translation (for the NT), or the KJV2000, or the NKJV, all of which for the most part reproduce an accurate translation of the NT for English readers.

My personal likes and dislikes are simply not relevant.
I am fortunate to be able to read Greek well enough to bypass translations. Not everyone has the time or desire to acquire that skill. I sympathize.

peace
Nazaroo

GE:

I cannot see how you place in the same 'category, 'translations' like the KJAV and the rest of the 'KJ's'.

I don't know them all --- the one is as 'good or bad' as the other --- you could just as well have classed NIV with the last group.

I saw changes - blatant ones - being introduced into 'translations' and 'versions' through the last part of the last century. I also noticed this development from Bibles of before 'my time'. I grew up with the 1933 Afrikaans Bible, and first time ever, noticed significant CHANGES when the NIV was placed in the pews of the church I attended.

The 'new versions' EXPLAINED IT ALL! I did not 'discover' the CHANGES; they 'discovered' - yea, BETRAYED - themselves!

I IMMEDIATELY brought these changes to the attention of my 'church' of then, the Seventh-day Adventist church.

I was treated like a leper ever since.

The SECTS are the servants of the 'mainline churches' in the RAPE of the Written Word of God. They are ALL JUST the same - the usurpers of the position of God on earth. And it NOWHERE shows clearer, than in mainly the New Testament Scriptures regarding "THE TIMES AND LAW OF GOD".

More prominent CHANGE and PERVERSION of the Scriptures than in Matthew 28:1, Mark 15:42 et al of the same kind, could not be found. And the fault does not lie in the 'text'; it lies in the quasi 'translations'!

 
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Nazaroo

New Member
You are right.

In fact, the changes involve a number of agendas, surprisingly, both Jewish and German:

The RCs and German Protestants want to remove all Jewishness from the Bible. In that quest, they have done this:

As a followup to Kittle's anti-Semitic distortion of the Bible, we can see a typical example of removal, deletion, and fudging of key Biblical terms which identify and explain the history of Israel and the Jews.

Here modern versions, following the Nazi Kittle, remove "House of Israel" from the NIV:

The House of Israel and the New Bibles, with a comparison of KJV vs NIVs




house+of+israel.jpg



The 'house of Israel' is a term used frequently in the pre-shoah bibles, but adds to the number of jewish related terms that show great changes in the modern bibles. While the pre-shoah pattern holds stead until the NLT in 1971, the paraphrase takes a nosedive in literally omitting the phrase. The pattern though is not absolutely straight forward: the NIV,NRSV, NKJV and the NIRV seem to hold the same approach as the pre-shoah bibles on this term, but the paraphrases and others dramatically decrease. The effects are approaching significance at a 95% Confidence Interval with a two tailed ttest comparison of pre and post Shoah Bibles, but show clear significance at a 90% CI. (Recall that even a trend is important when dealing with widely ranging variances, and most likely a Welch's would be significant even at 95% because of adjustments for widely differing variances).


What this does show again is an effect following the institution and widening use of Kittel's Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, especially after its increased use in the US. While one study is of course never definitive, almost all comparisons of standard Jewish reference terms show a change, even if not statistically significant, which matters to translators and those wishing an excellent transmission of the Word of God.


The following is a summary of the t test comparison:
__________________________________________________ _______
Unpaired t test results-HOUSE OF ISRAEL FOR PRE AND POST (includes 2011 NIV, and uses consensus by BLB and BST)
P value and statistical significance:
The two-tailed P value equals 0.0717
By conventional criteria, this difference is considered to be not quite statistically significant.

Confidence interval:
The mean of pre minus post equals 70.55
95% confidence interval of this difference: From -7.19 to 148.28
-------------------------------------------------

This result is significant with a 90% Confidence Interval

Intermediate values used in calculations:
t = 1.9605
df = 13
standard error of difference = 35.983



Review your data:
Group pre post
Mean 146.00 75.45
SD 0.82 70.27
SEM 0.41 21.19
N 4 11


______________________________________________-----


One last 'visual comparison though is that of the NIV translations, including the recent 2011 version, compared by raw count to the KJV: this is not of itself a test for superiority, but rather a 'landmark': two take the approach it would appear of the modern paraphrases, including the latest, while the others do not:


hoi-kjv+vs+niv.png


Further consideration is of the essence, but I will leave it there for this brief entry. The entirety of the 7 study series will be presented at a Baylor Conference in April by myself in a paper session. ekbest

Posted by Elizabeth K. Best, PhD​
 
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