The Israel of God...by the "bad baptist"

[Iconoclast]

Recently this idea of who or what is Israel came up....look here as the bad Baptist offers a study on it for some to get up to speed on this....Do you agree or disagree....answer with scripture and then your reasons for your understanding:thumbs::thumbs:

http://www.badbaptist.com/hot-topics/

 

[Yeshua1]

Recently this idea of who or what is Israel came up....look here as the bad Baptist offers a study on it for some to get up to speed on this....Do you agree or disagree....answer with scripture and then your reasons for your understanding:thumbs::thumbs:

http://www.badbaptist.com/hot-topics/

no, the truth is that Dispy teach that since time of Jesus ascension, there has only been one group of people saved into the Church, both jews/gentiles, but that God will after the rapture move to dealing with national isreal once again!

 

[Iconoclast]

no, the truth is that Dispy teach that since time of Jesus ascension, there has only been one group of people saved into the Church, both jews/gentiles, but that God will after the rapture move to dealing with national isreal once again!

Where is your scripture??? I am not taking your word for it....scripture is required...not your philosophy.

as per op-

answer with scripture and then your reasons for your understanding

post 2 is rejected...

 

[Yeshua1]

Where is your scripture??? I am not taking your word for it....scripture is required...not your philosophy.

as per op-



post 2 is rejected...

17 “And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18 But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His [h]Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the [j]period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet [k]like me from your brethren; to Him you shall give heed to everything He says to you. 23 And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. 25 It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God [l]made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 For you first, God raised up His [m]Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.”

Acts 3:17-26 Nasb

Peter states that the Nation Isreal rejected jesus as Messiah now, but that they will one day return and have jesus as messiah, and that will bring restoration to Isreal and the Earth!

Sounds like second coming stuff, eh?

 

[Grasshopper]

Recently this idea of who or what is Israel came up....look here as the bad Baptist offers a study on it for some to get up to speed on this....Do you agree or disagree....answer with scripture and then your reasons for your understanding:thumbs::thumbs:

http://www.badbaptist.com/hot-topics/

Icon you might appreciate this article as well:

http://www.sovereigngracebible.org/true_israel_of_god1.htm

 

[DHK]

The Biblical answer to this man's blog:

Why did the Christ fail in his attempt to establish a kingdom during his first advent? Dispensationalists say it was because his success depended on the consent of the Jewish nation. S. D. Gordon (Quiet Talks About Jesus, p. 131) says: “Everything must be done through man’s consent.” Commenting further on this he said (sec. IV):

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly,

 

[Gina B]

His logic fails when he states the cross would not have been needed had the kingdom been established, thus implying it was not meant to happen. What then is his explanation for sin in the garden being a human choice that destroyed the ordinal intent for the kingdom?
Genesis 3 repeatedly says "because you have done this..." and clearly does NOT say it was the plan.
Knowing what will happen does not in any way imply a desire for the occurence of such. To put it in human perspective, how often do we know something will happen, despite our plans otherwise? Have you ever made plans for your spouse or child, knowing they would blow the opportunity, yet you made it available - hoped they not mess it up? The only difference is that I doubt G-d gets surprised. We do, because we do not have full knowledge. He does.

 

[Grasshopper]

The Biblical answer to this man's blog:

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly,

I guess Daniel was a false prophet, because he told us when it was to be established.

 

[DHK]

I guess Daniel was a false prophet, because he told us when it was to be established.

Daniel was a prophet of God, and his Scripture was inspired of God. This guy is more of a nut case as some of you guys like to refer them.
Look again at just the portion I posted:

Why did the Christ fail in his attempt to establish a kingdom during his first advent?
Why the assumption that Christ failed. That's silly.
Christ is God and He never fails. Even the very suggestion of this contradicts both the Bible and the nature of God itself. If God can fail then God is not God.
So what "god" does this person believe in? Not the same deity (Jesus Christ who cannot fail) that I believe in!

Dispensationalists say it was because his success depended on the consent of the Jewish nation. S. D. Gordon (Quiet Talks About Jesus, p. 131) says: “Everything must be done through man’s consent.” Commenting further on this he said (sec. IV):[/I]

Here are a couple of fallacies. One of them is common on the board. He quotes from one dispensationalist and then assumes that that person speaks for all. He is wrong. I don't know the man and his words mean nothing to me.
Furthermore he may be taking Gordon's words out of their context.
Next, the statement he says is wrong and a broad generalization.
It is ridiculous for anyone to say that the success of Christ depends on the consent of the Jewish nation. I have never heard anyone say that. So this man heaps slander upon himself.

Just in this one small portion, there is enough poison to make one vomit.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon you might appreciate this article as well:

http://www.sovereigngracebible.org/true_israel_of_god1.htm

Thank you very much for this fine article. These are verses that I am constantly trying to gain more of an understanding of. I believe these are key verses to have a proper understanding of what God is doing through His church. It looks like you are enjoying similar passages and teaching:thumbs::wavey::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Y1

Acts 3:17-26 Nasb

Peter states that the Nation Isreal rejected jesus as Messiah now, but that they will one day return and have jesus as messiah, and that will bring restoration to Isreal and the Earth!

it does not say that here at all...it speaks of gentiles coming in.

Sounds like second coming stuff, eh

?

No...they are being told to repent and believe the bible.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

The Biblical answer to this man's blog:

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly,

[/QUOTE]

You cannot answer what he says...so you twist his words, that is sad.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Daniel was a prophet of God, and his Scripture was inspired of God. This guy is more of a nut case as some of you guys like to refer them.

because you cannot answer him you as usual demean him personally.It is dispensationalists who say these things not the author,

Look again at just the portion I posted:

Why did the Christ fail in his attempt to establish a kingdom during his first advent?
Why the assumption that Christ failed. That's silly.

He says this is what dispensationalists say....right here;
According to dispensationalist teaching, people would then have been saved by legal obedience. In the light of this fact, dispensationalism would also teach…when carried to its logical conclusion… that the cross would not have been necessary as a means of salvation


So now you make a strawman to beat up-

Christ is God and He never fails. Even the very suggestion of this contradicts both the Bible and the nature of God itself. If God can fail then God is not God.

This is not the authors position.....

So what "god" does this person believe in? Not the same deity (Jesus Christ who cannot fail) that I believe in!

you are bearing false witness...he never said or suggested this.

Here are a couple of fallacies. One of them is common on the board. He quotes from one dispensationalist and then assumes that that person speaks for all. He is wrong

. I

this is a cop out.....he gives common examples

don't know the man and his words mean nothing to me.

the man is not the topic of the OP.....you are not dealing with it.

Furthermore he may be taking Gordon's words out of their context.
Next, the statement he says is wrong and a broad generalization.
It is ridiculous for anyone to say that the success of Christ depends on the consent of the Jewish nation. I have never heard anyone say that. So this man heaps slander upon himself.

if you cannot deal with the content,,,,you do not have too. just say you cannot handle it.

Just in this one small portion, there is enough poison to make one vomit.

your twisting this cannot hide the facts...you do not have any answer.

 

[DHK]

DHK

because you cannot answer him you as usual demean him personally.It is dispensationalists who say these things not the author,

I am a dispensationalist and I don't say or believe the most ridicuolous and silly things that I read on that blog. If you attribute that kind of trash to dispies then you are as bad as he is.

He says this is what dispensationalists say....right here;
According to dispensationalist teaching, people would then have been saved by legal obedience. In the light of this fact, dispensationalism would also teach…when carried to its logical conclusion… that the cross would not have been necessary as a means of salvation

Do you really believe that? Have I ever, even one time, ever, suggested to you that salvation is by works, or by legal obedience? Has any dispensationalist on this board ever suggested to you that salvation is by works?
Then why the slanderous accusation?
Why the deliberate misrepresentation.
How can this person outright lie like this and you not see it??

So now you make a strawman to beat up-

There is no strawman here. There is outright mischaracterization of believers in Christ with a different eschatological stance than his. If others can't see that they need to look closer. He needs to repent of such accusations.

This is not the authors position.....

Neither is it the dispensationalist's position. Then what?
Someone is not telling the truth and I know who it is. The author of the blog is a deceiver. Such links ought to be banned IMO. If one is not honest in their representation of the truth then it should not be presented or linked to.

you are bearing false witness...he never said or suggested this.

He suggested that God can fail. Since we don't believe God can fail then he must. I am not bearing false witness. I am showing you the mischaracterization that he is using. Why throw this trash at someone when they don't believe it?

this is a cop out.....he gives common examples

I dealt with them already. I am simply showing you a common methodology; one that he just used, and is currently used on the board.
It is to quote a so-called "authority" and then assume that he speaks for all.
It doesn't work. Can I quote from the writings of Jack Hyles, as an average Baptist, and say that his theology is representative of yours the others that you associate? Aren't all Baptists the same?

the man is not the topic of the OP.....you are not dealing with it.

One thing at a time. I am dealing with how he is dealing with the subject matter, and it isn't with any amount of integrity.

if you cannot deal with the content,,,,you do not have too. just say you cannot handle it.

your twisting this cannot hide the facts...you do not have any answer.

Look at my original post. I took one small portion of his blog and took it apart phrase by phrase, sentence by sentence. I answered it all. It was a complete smear, deceptive, ungodly article. He stated things that others didn't believe. I pointed them out. You don't like it. Read it again.
Salvation is not of works. No one here has ever claimed it is by works.
But he claims that is what dispies believe. Why?
If you can't beat them with scripture then attack them with name calling. That seems to be his method.

 

[RLBosley]

Recently this idea of who or what is Israel came up....look here as the bad Baptist offers a study on it for some to get up to speed on this....Do you agree or disagree....answer with scripture and then your reasons for your understanding:thumbs::thumbs:

http://www.badbaptist.com/hot-topics/

Nailed it.

Icon you might appreciate this article as well:

http://www.sovereigngracebible.org/true_israel_of_god1.htm

That was a good article. Thanks for sharing. :thumbs:

 

[prophet]

Sad. Most people who think they are dispys now, have no idea how wacky their roots are.
Same goes for Reformed. They might as well pray to Mary.

Mat 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus came to ensure that the Law remained a stumblingblock to Israel.

1Pe 2:6-10
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious:and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious:but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient:whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Mar 4:11-12
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God:but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Mar 4:33-34
33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
34 But without a parable spake he not unto them:and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Rom 11:7-10
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rev 20:3-7
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrectionn such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Israel wasn't meant to have a kingdom to themselves, it was hid from them, until all of the rest of us joined it.

During the actual 1,000 year earthly reign clearly taught in Rev. 20, the same kingdom which Peter and his brethren thought was coming for just them, will be set up for ALL SAINTS of all ages to be officers in.
Dispys say it all about Israel, reformed say it isnt coming.

Neither are right.

 

[asterisktom]

Sad. Most people who think they are dispys now, have no idea how wacky their roots are.
Same goes for Reformed. They might as well pray to Mary.

Mat 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus came to ensure that the Law remained a stumblingblock to Israel.

I don't see how you came to that conclusion. The very means for Law abidance was taken away from the Jews when the Temple was destroyed. That was the physical foundation of the whole system. After the destruction there were no more valid sacrifices.

Also notice that when the Law was done away it was all done away at the same time. But right up until that time it was in full force, every jot and tittle - for those who allowed themselves to still remain under it.

I used to feel differently about this whe I was heavily steeped in Reformed writings, wanting to keep the Spirit of Law keeping, but at some time the point of this very passage dawned on me, The point being that it is all or nothing. For us as well as the Jews of the 1st century. (BTW, I challenge anyone to show Scriptural warrant for Law A and Law B. That it, that we no longer need to sacrifice, but must still "keep the Christian Sabbath" (sic - an oxymoronic phrase, I would contend.)

 

[prophet]

I don't see how you came to that conclusion. The very means for Law abidance was taken away from the Jews when the Temple was destroyed. That was the physical foundation of the whole system. After the destruction there were no more valid sacrifices.

Also notice that when the Law was done away it was all done away at the same time. But right up until that time it was in full force, every jot and tittle - for those who allowed themselves to still remain under it.

I used to feel differently about this whe I was heavily steeped in Reformed writings, wanting to keep the Spirit of Law keeping, but at some time the point of this very passage dawned on me, The point being that it is all or nothing. For us as well as the Jews of the 1st century. (BTW, I challenge anyone to show Scriptural warrant for Law A and Law B. That it, that we no longer need to sacrifice, but must still "keep the Christian Sabbath" (sic - an oxymoronic phrase, I would contend.)

The means was taken away when the Veil was rent in twain at His death.
The picture that the sacrifices foreshadowed was nullified, when His blood was shed.
The priesthood changed .

Maybe the Israelites clung to tradition, until 70 A.D., but it was empty.

Mat 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[Greektim]

Thank you very much for this fine article. These are verses that I am constantly trying to gain more of an understanding of. I believe these are key verses to have a proper understanding of what God is doing through His church. It looks like you are enjoying similar passages and teaching:thumbs::wavey::thumbs:

Have you read Andreas Kostnberger's article on this?

The Identity of the ᾿ΙΣΡΑΗΛ ΤΟΥ ΘΕΟΥ (Israel of God) in Galatians 6:16 -- By: Andreas J. Köstenberger

Journal: Faith and Mission
Volume: FM 19:1 (Fall 2001)

(if you can't find it online, pm me and I can send it to you)

See also Cowan's article in the SBTS journal, accessed here.

 

[Yeshua1]

Have you read Andreas Kostnberger's article on this?

The Identity of the ᾿ΙΣΡΑΗΛ ΤΟΥ ΘΕΟΥ (Israel of God) in Galatians 6:16 -- By: Andreas J. Köstenberger

Journal: Faith and Mission
Volume: FM 19:1 (Fall 2001)

(if you can't find it online, pm me and I can send it to you)

See also Cowan's article in the SBTS journal, accessed here.

Would say that paul probably was stating to us that the jews who, like Him, became the believers in yeshua, they, like him, were the true spiritual heirs of Abraham, as that the Jews who God saved out from national Isreal were the spirutal Isreal, but NOT that they were to be seen as the church itself...

The saved jews within the church would be spiritual isreal within the Body, not that the Body was all spiritual isreal!