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To say that God ever does not ALWAYS exercise ALL of HIS power ALL of the time is either blasphemy or right next door to it.

To think that God ever abdicates His throne in the least is a frightening thought. AWAY WITH SUCH NONSENSE!!!!

 

How do you equate not exercising all His power with abdicating His power. You are looking through your Calvinist philosophy again rather than the bible.

 

Apparently, we have some folks on this board who are accusing God of lying about Himself when He said this:

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

If God is not always totally absolutely sovereign, then He cannot know the end from the beginning, as He would not always be in control of every action if what some posters say was true. I thank God that He is always in control. I would not want to live in world of random events or events in control of anyone other than God.

 

If you are talking about your premillennialist beliefs, I reject those, especially if you are a dispensationalist.

 

LOL, just because God can do something, does not support the belief that God did do something. If God's plan is to allow humanity to exercise their autonomous choice of trusting in God and His Christ, or not, God can do it, and it does not mean God is not sovereign, it means He exercises His sovereignty in a manner that differs from the mistaken view of Calvinism.

 

So by your own words you are accusing God of being the author of sin since your view is that God is always totally absolutely sovereign and has to always be in control of every action. Whereas in my view God is sovereign and is always in control but does not have to be controlling all things that happen as He has allowed man to have a real free will and thus man is responsible for their actions such as sin. Your determinism comes from a pagan philosophy that was imported into the church.

 

That is such a horrendous, God-dishonoring statement.

 

"God's will determines all the choices and circumstances of his creatures, so that nothing is up to man's "free will." In fact, because God is completely sovereign, man has no free will:

All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalms 139:16)

The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)

All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)

All things are decided and caused by God – nothing is free from his control, and he has not chosen to forego his control on anything. The doctrine is repulsive to those who abhor the rule and honor of God, and so they oppose it. But the doctrine is a source of comfort and celebration to those who love him. Why would we want it any other way, than for God to rule over all things? And what better life can we wish for, than to be ruled by God?

The doctrine contradicts the religious tradition that God does not decree evil or that he does not cause evil. Of course God does not make decrees against his other decrees. Since God is not insane, he has only one will, one desire. However, there is no problem for him to issue a decree that causes his creatures to violate his precepts. Whereas decrees are declarations of intentions about things that he would cause to happen, precepts are declarations of definitions, not intentions, and do not overlap with the decrees. It must be true that God decrees and causes events that are contrary to his precepts; otherwise, there could be no evil, but there is indeed evil. Therefore, God must be the metaphysical author of sin and evil.

This does not mean that God himself is evil. To metaphysically cause evil and to morally commit evil are two different things. One is a matter of ability to cause something, while the other is a matter of conformity to a principle. The Bible teaches that God is the one who defines right and wrong, and that sin is a transgression of God's law. Therefore, for God to commit evil by causing evil – for this to be bad or wrong – he must declare a moral law that forbids himself to decree or to cause evil, that is, to decree or to cause his creatures to transgress his law. There is no biblical basis to suppose that God has declared such a law against himself. Indeed, the Bible teaches that all that God says and does are right and good. If he says it, it must be true. If he does it, it must be good. Therefore, since God is sovereign and there is evil, God must be the cause of evil, and since he is the cause of evil, it must be right and good for him to be the cause of evil.

There is no divine law that says God would be wrong if he were to be the cause of evil. Why, then, do men assume that it would be evil for God to be the author of sin? What law would God transgress? He would transgress the law of men, or what men have imposed upon him to define what a righteous God must or must not do. This is the sinister truth behind the religious tradition that says God is not the author of sin, for if he were to be such, it would mean that he has transgressed a law that men has declared against him. The necessary conclusion is that the doctrine that God is not the author of sin, or that it is blasphemy and heresy to say that he is, is itself the real blasphemy and heresy. Unless God is the author of sin and evil, he is not completely sovereign, and he is not God. Therefore, to deny that God is the author of sin and evil is to deny God.

The Bible teaches that God's decrees and actions are always right and good. Since he is completely sovereign, and there is evil in this universe, this means that he is the one who decrees and causes evil in this universe. But since his decrees and actions are always right and good, then this means that it is right and good that he is the one who decrees and causes evil in this universe. The very fact that he decrees and causes evil means that it is right and good for him to do so. There is no authority or standard higher than God by which to condemn him. If he thinks that it is good for him to cause evil, then it is good for him to cause evil.

This does not mean that evil is good, which would be a contradiction. Sin is defined as a transgression of God's moral law, and when we say that God is the author of sin, we are saying that God is the metaphysical cause of a creature's transgression of God's moral law. God transgresses no moral law, since there is no moral law against what he does, but he causes the creature to transgress. Morality relates to moral law. But there is no moral law against sovereign metaphysical power. It is right and good for God to metaphysically cause evil, just because he does it, and because he has not declared himself wrong for doing it. It is wrong for man to morally commit evil, because God has declared man wrong for doing it, although it is God who metaphysically causes man to do it. Therefore, God remains righteous, and the sinner remains evil. The distinctions are clear. There is no paradox or contradiction, and also no biblical or logical basis for objection against the doctrine.

Does this make God a tyrant? If the word simply means, "an absolute ruler," then of course God is a tyrant. And since he is the sole moral authority, the very fact that he is a tyrant means that he ought to be one, that it is good and just for him to be one. The negative connotations of the word apply only to human beings, since no man is worthy of absolute authority or capable to wield it. But God is "an absolute ruler" – that is what it means to be God."

- excerpt from Vincent Cheung's Systematic Theology

 

That is such a horrendous, God-dishonoring statement.

 

Why would you say that Ken? Do you not trust what the bible says? It seems you keep forgetting that the Holy Spirit is not a Calvinist like you.

 

As I said before, your own words condemn you.
A quote of your words "God's will determines all the choices and circumstances of his creatures, so that nothing is up to man's "free will." In fact, because God is completely sovereign, man has no free will:"
Ken under your philosophy man can only do as God has determined that he do so when man sins it is your version of god that is the actual sinner. Your version of god determines all that man does or thinks.

Under your version of god he is very conflicted. He does know if good is evil or if evil is good. It seem that you and Vincent Cheung have some very serious issues which you need to deal with.

 

I worship the God of the Bible. Apparently, you worship a god of your own vain imagination.

 

You rail against God being sovereign over you. You insist that you should get to determine if you are saved or not. You will not leave it up to God. You rant against the Biblical teaching of a sovereign God on His throne.

 

Ken you can keep saying that so as to convince your self but the error of your philosophy proves you wrong.

 

You continue to rail against what the Bible teaches, but it will do you no good. Your rants do not change the fact that you are in error.

 

Has nothing to do with "my philosophy". The Bible teaches man can only do as God has determined."

By the way, I was quoting Vincent Cheung, not myself. I don't want to someone to think I was claiming his words as something I wrote and published since you wrote, "A quote of your own words..."

 

Oh Kenny you have misread so much of what I have posted. God is sovereign and only He can save anyone and He has chosen to save those that freely trust in His son. I can not save myself anymore than I could fly by flapping my arms. You just can not stand the idea that God is actually sovereign and does as He wishes. Since He has given man a free will why do you keep denying it?

Salvation is wholly of God in that He owes no man forgiveness or eternal life, even if they freely repent and humbly submit to Him as Lord and Savior.

Asking for forgiveness no more merits that forgiveness than the prodigal son’s return home merited the reception he received from his father.

Faith in Christ Jesus is not a work, it is not meritorious but it is God's condition for salvation.

 

So once again you make your version of god the sole cause of sin and evil.

Are you now going to say that you disagree with Cheung's words. If so why did you post them?