The "little horn" power of Daniel 7 versus the "little horn" of Daniel 8

[Hobie]

So what is the difference between the "little horn" power which comes up in Dan. 7, compared with the "little horn" Dan. 8 where it comes up from among the four horns.

Daniel 7:7-8 King James Version (KJV)
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Daniel 7:18-21 King James Version (KJV)
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Then you have Daniel 8...
Daniel 8:3-11 King James Version (KJV)
3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

Notice Daniel 9 verse 8 'Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.'
Then verse 9 'And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

"Them" is a "pronoun", and thus refers back to a previous noun 'four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.'

Daniel sees the Antichrist as the “little horn” arising from among the ten horns nations that come after the Roman Empire, the dreadful beast as well as "out of one of them' and we see emergence of the Roman Empire as signified by the Battle of Actium in 31 BC and the conquest of Ptolemaic Egypt the following year.[

 

[Hobie]

We see historically that the "little horn" in no way can be "Antiochus Epiphanes IV", from the context itself in Daniel, and even from the history. We find in history that Antiochus IV Epiphanes does not reach even the most basic tenents of the 'little horn'. We see the four horns of the goat were "four kingdoms" (verse 22), the largest of which was the Seleucid (or Syrian) kingdom. Antiochus was not a separate horn, or kingdom, but one of the kings of the Seleucid horn, and hence a part of one of the horns. History shows the failure of Antiochus Epiphanes to fulfil the prophecies of Daniel 8 'little horn':

"... He was not deficient in capacity or vigour of mind to make a figure in war; but [31] such perversity and indiscretion prevailed in his whole conduct and behaviour, that they soon changed the surname which they had given him, and instead of Epiphanes, called him Epimanes, or madman; for many were the acts of folly ar madness which he committed. ..." Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XIX [19] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

"... Wherefore to many he appeared not to know what he was doing; some said that he acted from a silly sportive temper; others, that he was evidently mad. ..." Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XX [20] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

Even the apocryphal books of Maccabees, fail to demonstrate that Antiochus IV Epiphanes fulfills the prophcies of Daniel 8's 'little horn'. We can see for ourselves that the claim cannot be defeneded.

For instance in, we see that Epiphanes had 'ben a pledge at Rome' [1 Maccabees 1:11, Bishop's Bible 1568] [ie Hostage in youth at Rome, against his Father Antiochus III].

"... About this time, Antiochus, son to Antiochus the Great, who had been for a long time a hostage at Rome, came into possession of the kingdom of Syria, on the death of his brother Seleucus. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XIX [19] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

It only gets worse as even history is clear he [Antiochus IV] did not wax “exceeding great” by any standards, in Egypt [South], Jerusalem [Pleasant Land] or East [Medo-Persia], as his Father.

A lone Roman ambassador, Gaius Popillius Laenas from the Roman Senate, and some guards put him to flight in Egypt, putting Egypt completely out of his hands:

"... XI. In the mean time, Antiochus, after a fruitless attempt against the walls of Alexandria, had retired; and being now master of all the rest of Egypt, he left, at Memphis, the elder Ptolemy, whose settlement on the throne was the pretended object of his armament, though, in reality, he meant to attack him, as soon as he should have vanquished his competitors; and, then, he led back his army into Syria. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XI [11] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

"... XII. When the time fixed for the suspension of hostilities, was elapsed, Antiochus ordered the commanders of his fleet to sail up the mouth of the Nile to Pelusium, while he himself entered Egypt, through the deserts of Arabia. He was amicably received by the people about Memphis, as he was, afterwards, by the rest of the Egyptians; some being led by inclination, others by fear; and he proceeded thus, by short marches, down to Alexandria. He had just crossed the river at Eleusine, four miles from that city, when he was met by [249] the Roman ambassadors. At their coming, he saluted them, and held out his right hand to Popillius; but Popillius putting into his hand a written tablet, desired him first to peruse that. On reading it, he said, that he would call his friends together, and consult what was to be done; on which Popillius, with that roughness which generally marked his character, drew a line round the King, with a wand which he held in his hand, and said, “Before you go out of that circle, give such an answer as I may report to the senate.” Astonished at such a peremptory injunction, the King hesitated for some time; but, at last, replied, “I will do as the senate directs.” Popillius then thought proper to stretch out his right hand to him; as to a friend and ally. Antiochus having retired out of Egypt, on a day prefixed, the ambassadors employed their influence in establishing concord among the royal family, on a more firm basis than it had yet acquired; and then sailed to Cyprus, from whence they sent home the ships of Antiochus, and which had fought and defeated an Egyptian fleet. This embassy attracted a great share of respect from all nations; having manifestly rescued Egypt out of the hands of the Syrian, when he had it within his grasp, and restored to the race of Ptolemy, the kingdom of their forefathers. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XII [12] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

Daniel 8 does not appear in a vacuum, but comes after two parallel chapters, Daniel 2 and 7, which both help set the background for interpreting Daniel 8. The link between these three chapters, are seen clearly by Bible scholars.

 

[Hobie]

Take a look at Daniel 2 which tells about four world empires, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome, and ends in the future, at a time when a stone, “cut out without hands” (verse 34) smashes all the world empires until “no trace of them was found” (verse 35). We see then “the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever”.

Daniel 2:34-44 King James Version (KJV)
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Antiochus Epiphanes does not last till the end, but we see Papal Rome does fit, and clearly does not want the prophecy to point this out, and tries to deflect using this subterfuge.

 

[Hobie]

Daniel 7 covers the same ground as Daniel 2: four great world empires (Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome). And, as with Daniel 2, the chapter ends with God establishing His eternal kingdom. “Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him” (verse 27).

And like Daniel 2, in Daniel 7 after Greece only one more kingdom arises, the fourth beast and the little horn that comes directly out of that beast and that remains part of it.

Daniel 7:3-8 King James Version (KJV)
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

We clearly know the major power that arises after Greece and the Roman Empire, and came out of the empire and is in existence today, like the iron and iron and clay in Daniel 2. It extends to the end of time, when God establishes His eternal kingdom, and destroys this Antichrist entity that "speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws"...

Daniel 7:25-26 King James Version (KJV)
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

 

[Hobie]

You can see that most Bible scholars agree with the history of the empires...

"Daniel sees that the little horn has “eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully” (Daniel 7:8). The proud, boastful words of the little horn continue until the day of judgment (verses 9–10). At that time, “the beast was slain and its body . . . thrown into the blazing fire” (verse 11). That is the end of the little horn.

Daniel is troubled by the vision of the beast and the little horn, and he asks specifically about it (Daniel 7:19). An angel explains: the beast’s ten horns are ten kings who will arise from that kingdom (verse 24). A horn in the Bible is often a symbol of strength and authority (see Psalm 89:24 and 132:17). The little, boastful horn with a human mouth and eyes represents a specific king; at his rise to power, three of the original kings will fall. This evil king pictured as the little horn “will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people” (Daniel 7:25). He will seek to change times and laws, and he will exert oppressive power over God’s people for three and a half years (verse 25).

The fourth beast that Daniel saw was the Roman Empire, the world kingdom that would arise after Greece. The little horn that Daniel saw is a world leader especially noted for his blasphemies and the scope of his power. Because this little horn is ruling at the time Judgment Day comes, we identify it as the Antichrist, the “ruler who will come” who sets up the abomination in Daniel 9:27. The mention of three and a half years corresponds with the duration of the Antichrist’s rule in Revelation 11:2; 12:14; and 13:5.

The little horn emerges from the fourth beast, a fact that suggests that, in the end times, there will be a “revival” of the old Roman Empire. This restoration, whatever form it takes, will feature a coalition of ten world leaders. The Antichrist will make his move to the top at the expense of three of those leaders, and he will eventually wield global authority. A true tyrant, the Antichrist will seek to control every aspect of life (see Revelation 13:16–17). He will even demand to be worshiped (verse 15).

The little horn of Daniel 7 is the same as the first beast of Revelation 13. The beast in Revelation also has ten horns. And, like the little horn of Daniel’s fourth beast, John’s beast “was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies. . . . It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name” (Revelation 13:5–6).... https://www.gotquestions.org/little-horn.html

But then fade away when it is obvious its the Papacy that is being identified and put it to some future power way at the end. But history shows us otherwise...

"The Roman church was the most powerful force in Europe—a little horn that became more stout than its fellows. By the time Cardinal Hildebrand became pope (1073), he was affirming that the Roman pontiff should not only be the universal head of the church, but also the ruler of the world (cf. Newton, 241-245; Sanderson, Lamberton, and McGovern, 334-336; Alzog 1890, 184ff).

(b) The little horn was said to speak “great things” which were “against the Most High.” The blasphemous arrogance of the popes is well-known to students of church history.

Newton cites the following papal claim:

Our Lord God the pope; another God upon earth, king of kings, and lord of lords. The same is the dominion of God and the pope. To believe that our Lord God the pope might not decree, as he decreed, it were a matter of heresy. The power of the pope is greater than all created power, and extends itself to things celestial, terrestrial, and infernal. The pope doeth whatsoever he listeth, even things unlawful, and is more than God (456).

Pope Innocent III (1198-1216), in his inaugural speech, declared, “The successor of St. Peter stands midway between God and man; below God, above man; Judge of all, judged of none” (Hurlbut 1954, 112).

(c) The Roman church, under the authority of its popes, has been a vicious persecutor of those who oppose its apostate doctrines. A Catholic scholar asserts that his own church “can tolerate no strange Churches beside herself” (Pohle 1913, 766). During the Spanish Inquisition (a tribunal established by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages for the purpose of suppressing error) thousands were burned alive for their alleged heresies against the Church......https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/184-little-horn-of-daniels-sea-beast-the