The Lord's Prayer

[DHK]

When his disciples came to him they asked him: Teach us to pray.
He answered them: Pray after this manner
He did not say: Pray this prayer.
He gave them a model, a pattern to follow after.

Even so, I believe the prayer is inaccurately named. It ought to be called the Disciple's Prayer. The true "Lord's Prayer" is found in John 17, often called "Christ's Great High Priestly Prayer." That is the Lord's Prayer.

It is a rare Christian who can truly pray the Lord's Prayer and actually mean it.
Instead of going through it phrase by phrase and see what each phrase actually means, let's just take one as an example.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

The latter part "thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven."
How many can actually pray that prayer and really mean it?
How is God's will done in heaven?
How do the angels respond to the commands of God?
--immediately, without question, without complaint, without hesitation, right away, never objecting, etc.

How many here can say that when the Lord gives a command, that they obey it in the same way that the angels in heaven obey God's commands?
"Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Can we honestly pray that prayer and mean it? It is a difficult prayer to pray.

 

[targus]

So the angles in heaven ask for forgiveness every day?

Why? Have the angles sinned?

It all makes no sense to me.

If we are saved and we all sin and all of our sins are forgiven anyway - why the constant asking for forgiveness?

Like I said - it sounds like a lack of faith in the completed work of the cross.

 

[Marcia]

If we know that our sins are already forgiven why ask for it again?

That doesn't make sense to me.

To continue to ask each day for something that we have already been given sounds like vain repetition. Why would Jesus tell us to pray with vain repetition?

Maybe all of our sins are not forgiven - past, present and future - when we are saved.

And if we can be saved and then unsaved and then saved again over and over...

This is all getting very confusing.

I answered your question as to why we should ask forgiveness. This is not about being saved again and again - I never implied that!

We still need forgivenes after we are saved. When we trusted Christ, yes, all our sins were forgiven but we have not yet committed all those sins. We need to ask forgiveness and then thank God for that forgiveness - this keeps us humble and reminds us of those sins putting Jesus on the cross.

It is not vain repetition - that is repeating a prayer over and over in a prideful way. This is the opposite -- repenting and confessing.

Have you looked at these:

Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. James 5:16

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1.9

Does it make sense to confess sins and not ask for forgiveness?

 

[Marcia]

No. It is just not a condition to gtting my sins forgiven or restoring my relationship with God. I just need to repent (that is, turn my heart back to God). I will then thank Him for forgiving me, not ask Him to.

I John 1:9 has become the protestants replacement to the RC confessional. This verse is to unbelievers and is how we get saved (cleaned from all righteousness.) We don't need to get saved over and over again.

Sinning does not mean your relationship with God needs to be restored but that you have gone away from Him and don't want your sin to be a stronghold or weak point.

Have you never met Christians who have damaged relationships with God? I do all the time! They are saved but are letting sin keeping them from being close to the Lord. A relationship is not static - it's dynamic and we are told in many places how to live as believers.

Please give evidence that 1 John is written to unbelievers! It is written to believers.

 

[DHK]

So the angles in heaven ask for forgiveness every day?

Why? Have the angles sinned?

It all makes no sense to me.

If we are saved and we all sin and all of our sins are forgiven anyway - why the constant asking for forgiveness?

Like I said - it sounds like a lack of faith in the completed work of the cross.

Who said anything about the angels sinning? The Lord used a simile, a figure of speech. He said:
AS in heaven, SO on earth.
As his will is accomplished in heaven let it also be accomplished on earth
The statement says nothing about angels. The question you must answer is: How is his will done in heaven?

 

[trustitl]

I wrote: "My wife and I have learned to not rely on asking for forgiveness as a condition for restoration."
And your response was:

So you never apologise to each other??!

How can such a smart guy like you arrive at such a conclusion. Look at it again. All I said was that we do not see confession, or an apology as a condition for restoration.

The same can be said of all His teaching - are we to likewise disregard it? Perhaps I should tear the Gospels out of my Bible then.

No, you just need to learn what Christ came preaching and how it changed when the Jews rejected Him. Look into it and it will help make some of these "difficult" verses make more sense.

Metaphorically, yes. Aren't you?

How does one metaphorically cut his hand off?

Er...in my copy of the Bible it's in the New Testament. And the Lord's Prayer is also in Luke's Gospel, which I think you'll find is also in the New Testament

When did the New Testament, or more properly the New Covenant begin? Surely you understand that Jesus lived in the Old Covenant.

Who was the greatest Old Covenant prophet? John the Baptist.

 

[trustitl]

Please give evidence that 1 John is written to unbelievers! It is written to believers.

John is talking to some people who are deceived into thinking they are saved because they think they don't sin.

v. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

and

v. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

and

v. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Verse 9 is merely the call to repent that saves. When we are born of the Spirit we are "cleansed from all unrighteousness". If one takes your position on this verse, we are in need of being "cleansed from all unrighteousness" over and over again. I don't see that as a proper understanding.

 

[DHK]

John is talking to some people who are deceived into thinking they are saved because they think they don't sin.

v. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

and

v. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

and

v. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Verse 9 is merely the call to repent that saves. When we are born of the Spirit we are "cleansed from all unrighteousness". If one takes your position on this verse, we are in need of being "cleansed from all unrighteousness" over and over again. I don't see that as a proper understanding.

If we confess... John includes himself. Did John need repentance. Did he need to be saved? He says we, which includes himself.

This first epistle of John was written to believers. It has two purposes in mind. One, it was an epistle to show to believers evidences of their salvation: how they could know they were saved, or some assurances of their salvation. The word "know" is a key word.
For example:
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
--One way that we can tell if we are saved is if we keep his commandments.
Hereby we do know that we know him (that we are saved), if we keep his commandments. John's epistles is filled with such assurances or proofs of one's salvation. It is written personally. Apply these to yourself. It is not written with the intent in mind: This is how you can know others are saved.

The second reason that John writes is because of false teachers, in particular the gnostics, who were prevalent at that time. The gnostics believed that they had special knowledge that no one else was privy to. They believed that the flesh was evil. Thus they believed that Christ did not come in the flesh or did not dwell in a fleshly body. To counter this false teaching we find John giving such statements as:

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
--He had seen him with his own eyes, touched him, handled him. He was an eyewitness. He certainly was flesh and blood; God incarnate.

Much of which he writes is to counter the false teachers, and their false doctrines. But it is all written to Christians. 1John 1:9 can only refer to believers. When we are saved all our sins are under the blood. We need not be concerned with them any longer, as far as our salvation is concerned.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."
--But in iJohn, John is speaking of our fellowship with Christ. If we are to have a proper and right relationship with Christ day by day, then we need to confess our sins day by day. Even the Psalmist knew that:

Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

It is not about salvation; it is about fellowship with God.
If we have unconfessed sin in our hearts how is God going to hear our prayers?
What kind of fellowship are we able to have with him?
Confess the sin first, and then find sweet fellowship with the Lord.
The salvation has already been taken care of.

 

[Matt Black]

I wrote: "My wife and I have learned to not rely on asking for forgiveness as a condition for restoration."
And your response was:

How can such a smart guy like you arrive at such a conclusion. Look at it again. All I said was that we do not see confession, or an apology as a condition for restoration.

You're changing your statement: first you say that you don't rely on forgiveness for restoration; now you say you don't rely on confession/ apology for it. To me, without commenting on your own situation, both are pretty important for a healthy marriage, even if the apology is the more neutral "I'm sorry we argued."

No, you just need to learn what Christ came preaching and how it changed when the Jews rejected Him. Look into it and it will help make some of these "difficult" verses make more sense.

So Jesus' message was dependent on whether others accepted it? Sorry, don't buy that - where's the Scriptural support for that notion?

How does one metaphorically cut his hand off?

Easy. If for example, there's a program on TV which causes me to be tempted to think lustful or adulterous thoughts ("my eye causes me to sin"), I switch channels or turn it off and go do something else ("I pluck it out").

When did the New Testament, or more properly the New Covenant begin? Surely you understand that Jesus lived in the Old Covenant.

No- what?!

Who was the greatest Old Covenant prophet? John the Baptist.

But he was the forerunner of the New; the greatest of the Old and the least of the New. Jesus is the epitome of the New Covenant