I thought that just about everyone had seen ths little video clip, but I was just browsing through the 'Determinism' thread and @Silverhair and @Psalty were continually asking @Brightfame52 how he knows he's saved. Here's the answer:
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The Man on the Middle Cross
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
- Start date
Psalty
Active Member
This is Silverhairs argument, so Ill let him do the heavy lifting, but Ill state my case simply.
Alistar is right that we need to say Jesus saved us and its all “because of Him”. Any Calvinist or nonCalvinist would say this. He is correct.
The question asked is “how can you know it”?
The calvinist must assert that they are elect… and not one of the effervescent, ie the ones that 1 John says “they were never really of us”. Calvinists always use this to point to backsliders and say they were never really saved.
And the challenge with determinism/calvinism is that ANY Calvinist could be in this place, right up to their death, by Gods decree.
For the Calvinist it will always be unknown what God has determined for you until you are in the presence of the Lord. He could have appointed you to believe for a while only to appoint you to fall away- for His glory. You can never actually know on Calvinism.
Alistar is right that we need to say Jesus saved us and its all “because of Him”. Any Calvinist or nonCalvinist would say this. He is correct.
The question asked is “how can you know it”?
The calvinist must assert that they are elect… and not one of the effervescent, ie the ones that 1 John says “they were never really of us”. Calvinists always use this to point to backsliders and say they were never really saved.
And the challenge with determinism/calvinism is that ANY Calvinist could be in this place, right up to their death, by Gods decree.
For the Calvinist it will always be unknown what God has determined for you until you are in the presence of the Lord. He could have appointed you to believe for a while only to appoint you to fall away- for His glory. You can never actually know on Calvinism.
13 | These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, [even] unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 Jn 5 |
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Psalty
Active Member
Unless you are are chosen by God to fall away… forHis glory
Not at all unheard of in order to accomplish His will, saints and devils alike. It doesn't change the individual's eternal status. You're either a child of Zion or a child of the devil.
John Chapter 6
70 | Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil? |
Luke Chapter 22
31 | Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: |
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Psalty
Active Member
Right, which is why as a calvinist you cant know if you are chosen to glorify Him by falling away… until you make it to His presence.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Gal 6:14
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
As a believer in His faithfulness, I don't worry about such things, for real.
2nd Timothy Chapter 1
12 | For which cause I suffer also these things: yet I am not ashamed; for I know him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to guard that which I have committed unto him against that day. |
Psalty
Active Member
Of course you dont! He’s decreed that you wont and for you to trust in Him… at least for now!
And your belief, hope, and prayer will not be able to change what He has already decreed regarding whether you will remain faithful to the end, or if His decree will include you falling away for His glory.
Wow, you're one of the worst cases I've seen in a while, your imagination is running wild, and none of what you've posted concerning me is true. You're ate up with it.
Not at all. Both @Brightfame52 and I have stated that looking inside yourself to see if you're elect is fatal, as is wondering if you have enough faith. We must look to Christ.
Let me tell you a story:
Thomas Bilney (you can look him up on line if you want) was a newly ordained priest in the Church of Rome in the early 16th Century, but he had no assurance of salvation; he felt himself to be a dreadful sinner. He tried all the medieval Roman Catholic stuff - confessions, fastings, self-flagellation etc. - but nothing helped. Then he came across the new edition of the Greek N.T. produced in 1516 by Erasmus, with a Latin translation. He had never read the Bible before, only such extracts as the R.C. Church put in their religious books. He came across 1 Timothy 1:15. 'This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of who I am chief.'
In a moment, his doubts disappeared and he was filled with joy. He had thought of himself as the chief of sinners, but here was Paul saying that he was the chief. And Jesus Christ did not come to save righteous people, but sinners like him. In his joy, he went about preaching the Good News of Jesus Christ. Among those converted under his ministry was Hugh Latimer who played a massive part in the English Reformation. Bilney was burnt at the stake in 1531, but his work survives him.
When from the dust of death I rise
To claim my mansion in the skies,
E’en then this shall be all my plea,
Jesus hath lived, hath died for me.
Psalty
Active Member
Most calvinists live where you live… acting like God’s will is known in their life, and thinking falling away is only something God would determine for “someone else” to fall away for His glory, just like you have demonstrated in this post.
It is unpleasant to be confronted by it… especially not liking hearing it, and not liking that you can’t answer it.
Romans Chapter 7
18 | For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not. |
24 | Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? |
25 | I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. |
Like I said, your imagination runs wild, none of this is so, you truly are 'ate up with it'.
What has caused this extreme hatred and bitterness within you? Has a 'Calvinist' done you wrong or caused you great harm?
Psalty
Active Member
No hate at all!
I thought this was a debate forum?
The question in this thread is, can you know as a Calvinist that you are saved?
So far the answer is no. I’m trying to see if there is actually an answer by the Calvinist to this problem.
So far there is no answer from the calvinist other than “but I dont think im one of those that God would have fall away”.
Its not an answer… so for now the Calvinist has no grounds for security.
I thought this was a debate forum?
The question in this thread is, can you know as a Calvinist that you are saved?
So far the answer is no. I’m trying to see if there is actually an answer by the Calvinist to this problem.
So far there is no answer from the calvinist other than “but I dont think im one of those that God would have fall away”.
Its not an answer… so for now the Calvinist has no grounds for security.
Psalty
Active Member
But how does looking to Christ help you know if you are one of those that is decreed to fall away?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The reality is that for a consistent calvinist they cannot know for sure if they are in fact one of the "elect" picked out before creation. They can say they are but the best they can do is hope they are.
If you were not one of those than even though they may think they are saved and my even be a preacher they are in fact lost as they will at some point in their life or at judgement find out.
As any consistent calvinist will tell you they were regenerated and then God gave them faith to believe. They had to be made alive spiritually before they could believe the gospel message.
But what does the bible say;
Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,
Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Act 16:30 ... “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Act 16:31 ... “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,...”
God's order is believe and you will be saved. One is made alive spiritually when they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Simply knowing the words of Christ and trusting them.
John 6:37. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will never cast out."
But tell me, you who are relying on your faith: how do you know that your faith will endure? How do you know that some crafty atheist is not going to refute all your arguments and shatter your supposedly unshakeable faith?
Ever hear of 'Cage-Stage Calvinism'?
"Cage-stage describes an all too common phenomenon wherein a believer comes to embrace the doctrines of grace, and for a time becomes an obnoxious lout in defending the doctrines to all comers, whether they are interested or not. It suggests that such a newbie should spend some time in a cage until they calm down. If you are a Calvinist you likely have been through this stage. If you are not, you surely have encountered those who were infected....."
You're on the opposite end of the spectrum - CDS quack.
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