Spirit and Truth
New Member
I am just wondering if anyone has read this "translation" yet, and what are your opinions. I personally find it extremely dissapointing.
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The "Message" Bible ???
- Thread starter Spirit and Truth
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Spirit and Truth
New Member
I have always viewed the various dynamic equivalency and paraphrase versions as an easier read, but not as accurate as literal versions. I am not very fond of the NIV, but with the advent of this "Message" version, the NIV has been raised to a new standard. Let's look at some comparison verses:
1 Timothy 3:16
KJV - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory
YLT- and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety -- God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!
LITV - And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in flesh, was justified in Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
MESSAGE - This Christian life is a great mystery, far exceeding our understanding, but some things are clear enough: He appeared in a human body, was proved right by the invisible spirit, was seen by angels. He was proclaimed among all kinds of peoples, believed in all over the world, taken up into heavenly glory.
Colossians 2: 8-9
KJV - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily
LITV - Watch that there not be one robbing you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
YLT - See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ, because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,
MESSAGE - They spread their ideas through the empty traditions of human beings and the empty superstitions of spirit beings. But that's not the way of Christ. Everything of God gets expressed in him, so you can see and hear him clearly.
Matthew 6:9
KJV - After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
YLT - thus therefore pray ye: `Our Father who [art] in the heavens! hallowed be Thy name.
LITV- So, then, you should pray this way: Our Father who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
MESSAGE - With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simple. Like this: Our Father in heaven, reveal who you are.
Acts 11:18
KJV - When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
YLT- And they, having heard these things, were silent, and were glorifying God, saying, `Then, indeed, also to the nations did God give the reformation to life.'
LITV - And hearing these things, they kept silent and glorified God, saying, Then God also has granted to the nations repentance unto life.
MESSAGE - Hearing it all laid out like that, they quieted down. And then, as it sank in, they started praising God. "It's really happened! God has broken through to the other nations, opened them up to Life!"
Romans 16:17
KJV - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
YLT - And I call upon you, brethren, to mark those who the divisions and the stumbling-blocks, contrary to the teaching that ye did learn, are causing, and turn ye away from them;
LITV - And brothers I exhort you to watch those making divisions and causes of stumbling contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and turn away from them.
MESSAGE - Keep a sharp eye out for those who take bits and pieces of the teaching that you learned and then use them to make trouble. Give these people a wide berth.
1 Timothy 4:1
KJV- Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
YLT - And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,
LITV - But the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, cleaving to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons,
MESSAGE: The Spirit makes it clear that as time goes on, some are going to give up on the faith and chase after demonic illusions put forth by professional liars."
2 Timothy 4:3-4
KJV - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4. And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
YLT - for there shall be a season when the sound teaching they will not suffer, but according to their own desires to themselves they shall heap up teachers -- itching in the hearing, and indeed, from the truth the hearing they shall turn away, and to the fables they shall be turned aside.
LITV - For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own lusts, they will heap up to themselves teachers tickling the ear; 4 and they will turn away the ear from the truth and will be turned aside to myths.
MESSAGE - You're going to find that there will be times when people will have no stomach for solid teaching, but will fill up on spiritual junk food - catchy opinions that tickle their fancy. They'll turn their backs on truth and chase mirages.
Revelation 22: 12-13
KJV - And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
YLT - And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be; I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.
LITV - And lo, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to each as his work shall be; 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and End--the First and the Last.
MESSAGE - "Yes, I'm on my way! I'll be there soon! I'm bringing my payroll with me. I'll pay all people in full for their life's work. I'm A to Z, the First and the Final, Beginning and Conclusion.
If the Literal Translations are like a two edged sword, and the NIV is like a single edged sword, then the Message is like a butter knife. Coupled with the new age terms that it uses, I would recommend that it makes an excellent door stop. I can not believe that Baptist pastors are reading to their congregations out of this "translation". Just my opinion.
1 Timothy 3:16
KJV - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory
YLT- and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety -- God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!
LITV - And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in flesh, was justified in Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
MESSAGE - This Christian life is a great mystery, far exceeding our understanding, but some things are clear enough: He appeared in a human body, was proved right by the invisible spirit, was seen by angels. He was proclaimed among all kinds of peoples, believed in all over the world, taken up into heavenly glory.
Colossians 2: 8-9
KJV - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily
LITV - Watch that there not be one robbing you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
YLT - See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ, because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,
MESSAGE - They spread their ideas through the empty traditions of human beings and the empty superstitions of spirit beings. But that's not the way of Christ. Everything of God gets expressed in him, so you can see and hear him clearly.
Matthew 6:9
KJV - After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
YLT - thus therefore pray ye: `Our Father who [art] in the heavens! hallowed be Thy name.
LITV- So, then, you should pray this way: Our Father who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
MESSAGE - With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simple. Like this: Our Father in heaven, reveal who you are.
Acts 11:18
KJV - When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
YLT- And they, having heard these things, were silent, and were glorifying God, saying, `Then, indeed, also to the nations did God give the reformation to life.'
LITV - And hearing these things, they kept silent and glorified God, saying, Then God also has granted to the nations repentance unto life.
MESSAGE - Hearing it all laid out like that, they quieted down. And then, as it sank in, they started praising God. "It's really happened! God has broken through to the other nations, opened them up to Life!"
Romans 16:17
KJV - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
YLT - And I call upon you, brethren, to mark those who the divisions and the stumbling-blocks, contrary to the teaching that ye did learn, are causing, and turn ye away from them;
LITV - And brothers I exhort you to watch those making divisions and causes of stumbling contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and turn away from them.
MESSAGE - Keep a sharp eye out for those who take bits and pieces of the teaching that you learned and then use them to make trouble. Give these people a wide berth.
1 Timothy 4:1
KJV- Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
YLT - And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,
LITV - But the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, cleaving to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons,
MESSAGE: The Spirit makes it clear that as time goes on, some are going to give up on the faith and chase after demonic illusions put forth by professional liars."
2 Timothy 4:3-4
KJV - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4. And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
YLT - for there shall be a season when the sound teaching they will not suffer, but according to their own desires to themselves they shall heap up teachers -- itching in the hearing, and indeed, from the truth the hearing they shall turn away, and to the fables they shall be turned aside.
LITV - For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own lusts, they will heap up to themselves teachers tickling the ear; 4 and they will turn away the ear from the truth and will be turned aside to myths.
MESSAGE - You're going to find that there will be times when people will have no stomach for solid teaching, but will fill up on spiritual junk food - catchy opinions that tickle their fancy. They'll turn their backs on truth and chase mirages.
Revelation 22: 12-13
KJV - And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
YLT - And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be; I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last.
LITV - And lo, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to each as his work shall be; 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and End--the First and the Last.
MESSAGE - "Yes, I'm on my way! I'll be there soon! I'm bringing my payroll with me. I'll pay all people in full for their life's work. I'm A to Z, the First and the Final, Beginning and Conclusion.
If the Literal Translations are like a two edged sword, and the NIV is like a single edged sword, then the Message is like a butter knife. Coupled with the new age terms that it uses, I would recommend that it makes an excellent door stop. I can not believe that Baptist pastors are reading to their congregations out of this "translation". Just my opinion.
RaptureReady
New Member
My opinion would be this. Do you guys look for a new word of God everytime someone puts one out? Why are you still searching? Why not stick with what has worked for over 400 years now and allow it to be your Sword in this life. Yes, I am refering to the King James Bible. Love it and believe it.
That's not an opinion. That's a question. And the answer is "no".
Because I like to also use my 450 year old sword and my 670 year old sword, and love them and believe them. Why are you trying to correct and replace my Wycliffe and Geneva? They are the word of God! Psalm 12:6-7 says so! And don't you dare touch my 2000 year old sword, which still works and is also the word of God, the LXX!
I bought The Message the other day and it has some colorful renderings that I like and also some very very bad renderings that are poor even for a paraphrase. One should not use it to study from but for light reading while your waiting to get a haircut in the barber shop or waiting see the doctor in the waiting room or maybe to add a little light to a passage that makes it more contemporary but read with caution in that it is poor poor in accuracy.
Originally posted by Askjo:
Originally posted by HomeBound:
My opinion would be this. Do you guys look for a new word of God everytime someone puts one out? Why are you still searching? Why not stick with what has worked for over 400 years now and allow it to be your Sword in this life. Yes, I am refering to the King James Bible. Love it and believe it.
We don't speak Jacobean English any more, same as Jacobean England didn't use Middle English any more. The AV 1611-Good News for 17th Century man.
Originally posted by HomeBound:
My opinion would be this. Do you guys look for a new word of God everytime someone puts one out? Why are you still searching? Why not stick with what has worked for over 400 years now and allow it to be your Sword in this life. Yes, I am refering to the King James Bible. Love it and believe it.
We don't speak Jacobean English any more, same as Jacobean England didn't use Middle English any more. The AV 1611-Good News for 17th Century man.
Jesus is Lord
New Member
Thou dost not???
All about Grace
New Member
Homebound: Why not stick with what has worked for over 400 years now
I trust you use this same logic in every area of your life. Could someone pass the bucket of coal, the dirt floor is getting a little chilly???
I trust you use this same logic in every area of your life. Could someone pass the bucket of coal, the dirt floor is getting a little chilly???
I happen to like it very much. I use it occasionally for devotional reading and/or to get a new “take” on a passage I am very familiar with.
Peterson does not pretend to have made a “literal” translation (there is actually no such translation in popular use – including all the versions of the KJV – because all translations require the interpretation from the translator to make them readable), but rather a re-expression of the teaching/meaning of scripture in modern English usage.
A friend of mine is a classical Greek scholar (and a devout believer) and was impressed by the way Peterson rendered some of the more difficult passages.
At first I didn’t care for “The Message” when I first heard about it a few years ago, but after reading a borrowed copy of it for a few days doing devotional reading, I was very impressed. I immediately went out and bought the New Testament. When Peterson finished the Old Testament last year, I went out and bought it as well.
While I don’t use it for systematic study or my preparation for teaching, I do occasionally use it as an alternate reading for the group when I am teaching on a passage.
Spirit and Truth
New Member
BB said:
At first I didn't care for "The Message" when I first heard about it a few years ago, but after reading a borrowed copy of it for a few days doing devotional reading, I was very impressed. I immediately went out and bought the New Testament. When Peterson finished the Old Testament last year, I went out and bought it as well.
S&T:
How do you feel about the terms used in the translation that appear to be new age and possibly even occultic in nature?
At first I didn't care for "The Message" when I first heard about it a few years ago, but after reading a borrowed copy of it for a few days doing devotional reading, I was very impressed. I immediately went out and bought the New Testament. When Peterson finished the Old Testament last year, I went out and bought it as well.
S&T:
How do you feel about the terms used in the translation that appear to be new age and possibly even occultic in nature?
Debby in Philly
Active Member
Such as?
What are you talking about?
(Please be very specific.)Spirit and Truth
New Member
Matthew 6:10
LITV - Your kingdom come; Your will be done, as it is in Heaven, also on the earth.
MESSAGE - Set the world right; do what's best - AS ABOVE, S0 BELOW
2 Cor.5:14
LITV - For the love of Christ constrains us, having judged this, that if One died for all, then all died;
MESSAGE - Christ's love has moved me to such extremes. His love has the first and last word in everything we do. Our firm decision is to work from this FOCUSED CENTER: One man died for everyone.
1 Pet.1:17
LITV - And if you call on the Father, the One judging according to the work of each one without respect of faces pass the time of your sojourning in fear,
MESSAGE - Your life is a journey you must travel with a DEEP CONSCIOUSNESS of God.
Matt. 17:2
LITV - And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His clothing became white as the light.
MESSAGE - His appearance changed from the INSIDE OUT, right before their eyes
Luke 7:16
LITV - And fear took hold of all; and they glorified God, saying, A great prophet has risen up among us; and, God has visited His people.
MESSAGE - They all realized they were in a PLACE Of HOLY MYSTERY, that God was at work among them.
Matthew 5:44-45
LITV - but I say to you, Love your enemies; bless those cursing you, do well to those hating you; and pray for those abusing and persecuting you, so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. Because He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and unjust.
MESSAGE - When someone gives you a hard time, respond with the energies of prayer, for then you are working out of your TRUE SELVES, your God-created selves.
Luke 12:2
LITV - But there is nothing which has been completely concealed which will not be uncovered, nor hidden which will not be known.
MESSAGE - You can't keep your TRUE SELF hidden forever; before long you'll be exposed.
LITV - Your kingdom come; Your will be done, as it is in Heaven, also on the earth.
MESSAGE - Set the world right; do what's best - AS ABOVE, S0 BELOW
2 Cor.5:14
LITV - For the love of Christ constrains us, having judged this, that if One died for all, then all died;
MESSAGE - Christ's love has moved me to such extremes. His love has the first and last word in everything we do. Our firm decision is to work from this FOCUSED CENTER: One man died for everyone.
1 Pet.1:17
LITV - And if you call on the Father, the One judging according to the work of each one without respect of faces pass the time of your sojourning in fear,
MESSAGE - Your life is a journey you must travel with a DEEP CONSCIOUSNESS of God.
Matt. 17:2
LITV - And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His clothing became white as the light.
MESSAGE - His appearance changed from the INSIDE OUT, right before their eyes
Luke 7:16
LITV - And fear took hold of all; and they glorified God, saying, A great prophet has risen up among us; and, God has visited His people.
MESSAGE - They all realized they were in a PLACE Of HOLY MYSTERY, that God was at work among them.
Matthew 5:44-45
LITV - but I say to you, Love your enemies; bless those cursing you, do well to those hating you; and pray for those abusing and persecuting you, so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. Because He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and unjust.
MESSAGE - When someone gives you a hard time, respond with the energies of prayer, for then you are working out of your TRUE SELVES, your God-created selves.
Luke 12:2
LITV - But there is nothing which has been completely concealed which will not be uncovered, nor hidden which will not be known.
MESSAGE - You can't keep your TRUE SELF hidden forever; before long you'll be exposed.
Debby in Philly
Active Member
I think calling it New Age is a stretch. Especially TRUE SELF. Isn't that our sin nature? Clearly the meaning here.
Debby in Philly
Active Member
Anyway, while I don't think "The Message" is the greatest paraphrase there is, it's not bad for this day and age. Remember when your Sunday School teacher asked you to put a verse "in your own words" to see if you understood? Same thing here. As long as the reader realizes that's what this is (and not a translation), it's OK.
Spirit and Truth
New Member
Debbi stated:
I think calling it New Age is a stretch.
S&T:
Okay Debbi, let's examine some of the terms:
The message uses AS ABOVE SO BELOW. Let's look at some "mystical" groups who use this terminology:
MESSAGE - Set the world right; do what's best - AS ABOVE, S0 BELOW
www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/a/below_above.html
These is one of the many terms that are new age/ occultic / psycho babble in origin. Do you think that God wants His word mixed with the things of the world? This book and others, are the beginning of a scriptural path to the one world religion. If needed, I can show where many of the other terms used originated from as well.Believing that these terms could have been derived from the original Greek texts is the only stretch here. Thanks for your opinion.
I think calling it New Age is a stretch.
S&T:
Okay Debbi, let's examine some of the terms:
The message uses AS ABOVE SO BELOW. Let's look at some "mystical" groups who use this terminology:
MESSAGE - Set the world right; do what's best - AS ABOVE, S0 BELOW
www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/a/below_above.html
These is one of the many terms that are new age/ occultic / psycho babble in origin. Do you think that God wants His word mixed with the things of the world? This book and others, are the beginning of a scriptural path to the one world religion. If needed, I can show where many of the other terms used originated from as well.Believing that these terms could have been derived from the original Greek texts is the only stretch here. Thanks for your opinion.