The Nature of Man

[JSM17]

Announcing a Public Discussion on
“The Nature of Man”
April 27-30, 2009

Between:
Mac Deaver, Church of Christ
Matthew Black, Baptist

Resolved: “The Scriptures teach that a person is born innocent (free of sin) and becomes a sinner when he first transgresses the will of God, and that as a sinner (person in sin), he is able to respond to the gospel so that he can become a Christian.” --- Mac Deaver affirms/Matthew Black denies.

Resolved: “The Scriptures teach that a person is born hereditarily totally depraved and prone to sin, and that as such, stands in need of salvation. A person that responds to the gospel does so in faith and repentance as drawn and enabled by the Holy Spirit.” ---Matthew Black affirms/Mac Deaver denies.

Hosted by the Schaumburg Church of Christ
601 E. Schaumburg Road, Schaumburg, IL 60194
For further information: call 847-985-0028 or email Evangelism.jsm@gmail.com or visit our website: s-coc.org

 

[ajg1959]

Announcing a Public Discussion on
“The Nature of Man”
April 27-30, 2009

Between:
Mac Deaver, Church of Christ
Matthew Black, Baptist

Resolved: “The Scriptures teach that a person is born innocent (free of sin) and becomes a sinner when he first transgresses the will of God, and that as a sinner (person in sin), he is able to respond to the gospel so that he can become a Christian.” --- Mac Deaver affirms/Matthew Black denies.

Resolved: “The Scriptures teach that a person is born hereditarily totally depraved and prone to sin, and that as such, stands in need of salvation. A person that responds to the gospel does so in faith and repentance as drawn and enabled by the Holy Spirit.” ---Matthew Black affirms/Mac Deaver denies.

Hosted by the Schaumburg Church of Christ
601 E. Schaumburg Road, Schaumburg, IL 60194
For further information: call 847-985-0028 or email Evangelism.jsm@gmail.com or visit our website: s-coc.org

I will be praying for Matthew Black.

AJ

 

[annsni]

Resolved: “The Scriptures teach that a person is born innocent (free of sin)

I'd love to see where the Scriptures teach this.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

JSM17,

I disagree with their own resolved on that a person is born innocent (free of sin).

Biblle teaches us that we all already received sin within our mother's womb. Because when Adm sinned and he died, so death passed to all, because we all have sinned -Romans 5:12.

By the way, all infant babies do have sins, yet they are innocent, not know what is the right and wrong. Depend on their age, when they knowledge the between of wrong and right. Then, they are already sin. For me, I believe all infant babies who were aborted or died by sick, are in heaven, while they never have been baptized(infant baptism-Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, etc.). They're innoncent. God loves all infant babies. Even, King David knew that his son baby died are now in the heaven, that he will see him up there.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[ajg1959]

I will be praying for Matthew Black.

AJ

let me clarify this.

I will be praying for Matthew black because he is faced with some very strong opposition to biblical teachings.

To me, this is the first missionary command, to teach the folks in our own neighborhoods and towns, first, the true gospel. Yes, we need to spread the gospel throughout the whole world, but why should we bypass or ignore the local folks that are decieved?

Knowing the CoC doctrine, I fully support Mr Matthew's effort to show them the truth, and I do pray for his efforts to result in some changed hearts.

AJ

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DeafPostTrib: I disagree with their own resolved on that a person is born innocent (free of sin).

Biblle teaches us that we all already received sin within our mother's womb. Because when Adm sinned and he died, so death passed to all, because we all have sinned -Romans 5:12.

By the way, all infant babies do have sins, yet they are innocent, not know what is the right and wrong. Depend on their age, when they knowledge the between of wrong and right. Then, they are already sin. For me, I believe all infant babies who were aborted or died by sick, are in heaven, while they never have been baptized(infant baptism-Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, etc.). They're innoncent. God loves all infant babies. Even, King David knew that his son baby died are now in the heaven, that he will see him up there.

HP: DPT, may I simply reason together with you on this matter? Does Romans 5:12 say or imply that we have sin from our mother’s womb, or does it say we inherit a consequence of sin because ‘all have sinned?’ Certainly being a physical descendent of Adam we bear physical consequences, death being one of them, but still yet Scripture does not establish all as seeing death, Enoch and Elijah the exceptions. At the rapture, those that are alive and remain will also avoid physical death, will they not? As I see the verse, the very best that can be assumed from this verse is, all that see death do so, NOT because of Adam’s sin being tranmitted to us, but rather due to our physical connection to Adam, such as is the case with infants that die, or because of our own sin, which is the case of all those that die subsequent to moral accountability. It does not establish any Augustinian notion of original sin.

Something cannot be and be at the same time in the same sense. If there is sin, there is guilt. There is not one Scriptural definition of sin that does not involve personal guilt. There is not one Scripture that indicates that sin does not have a penalty. You cannot be sinful and innocent at the same time in the same sense. If babies are innocent, they are not sinful. If they are sinful, they cannot be innocent. I believe with you that they are innocent, therefore they cannot be sinful.

Babies are certainly are born with a proclivity to sin, or natural inclinations to sin, but that is not sin. Sin is only conceived as the will, subsequent to moral agency, chooses to form intents in agreement with those inclinations or proclivities.

The apostle James emphatically makes this point and warns us not to err concerning it. Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

 

[billwald]

>totally depraved

Means exactly what? Does the goodness or evil of an act depend entirely upon the spiritual state of the actor or are some acts intrinsically good or evil?

Where does "common grace" fit into this topic?

 

[JSM17]

Originally Posted by JSM17
Resolved: “The Scriptures teach that a person is born innocent (free of sin)

annsni wrote:

I'd love to see where the Scriptures teach this.

The same could be asked of you, were does the bible teach that: The Scriptures teach that a person is born hereditarily totally depraved...

If God is the author of our souls and He is and if we are born totally depraved then God bestills in us a soul tarnished by our first father Adam, but scriptures repeatedly tell us that we DO NOT bear the guilt of our fathers.

To say a baby is born sinful and then to proclaim that they are going to heaven is contrary to each other.

Scripture teach that from the womb we go astray, but it does not teach that we are born that way. I know someone will bring up Psalm 51, but even that passage does not say that we are born sinful.

The passages below may help with why I do not believe that man is born as a child of the devil.

Eccl 7:29

29 Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, But they have sought out many schemes."
NKJV

Ezek 28:15

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
NKJV

Ps 106:37-38

37 They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to demons,

38 And shed innocent blood, The blood of their sons and daughters, Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood.
NKJV

Deut 1:39-40

39'Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

40 But as for you, turn and take your journey into the wilderness by the Way of the Red Sea.'
NKJV

2 Chron 25:3-4

3 Now it happened, as soon as the kingdom was established for him, that he executed his servants who had murdered his father the king.

4 However he did not execute their children, but did as it is written in the Law in the Book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying,"The fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall the children be put to death for their fathers; but a person shall die for his own sin."
NKJV

Ezek 18:4

4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
NKJV

 

[webdog]

I agree with Deaver on the first, Black on the second. A sinner is one who commit's sin, like a rapist is one who rapes, a murderer one who murders, etc.
Sin passed to all men through Adam, but that is due to the sin nature and not his guilt. It is part of the curse (physical death "appointed unto man once to die") not part of Adam's guilt.

 

[webdog]

I'd love to see where the Scriptures teach this.

Romans 7:9

 

[webdog]

By the way, all infant babies do have sins, yet they are innocent, not know what is the right and wrong.

...then please tell me what sin a child commits at conception, in the first trimester, the second, the third, and immediatly at birth? Is God's Law pumped to the child through the umbilical cord so the child can break it?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

...then please tell me what sin a child commits at conception, in the first trimester, the second, the third, and immediatly at birth? Is God's Law pumped to the child through the umbilical cord so the child can break it?

I think he means a sin nature. Or propensity to sin. Kind of like mixing an ingredient into clay that cracks the structure once its fired up but you can't tell until you fire it up.

 

[webdog]

I'll wait for him to clarify, but it sounded like they sin, just don't know it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I'll wait for him to clarify, but it sounded like they sin, just don't know it.

Yeah gotta watch out for those sinning babies.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thinking stuff: I think he means a sin nature. Or propensity to sin. Kind of like mixing an ingredient into clay that cracks the structure once its fired up but you can't tell until you fire it up.

HP: Your illustration is indeed intriguing although I believe flawed. God blames man for sin and vows to punish it with eternal separation from Himself in Hell for it. In your illustration, can one blame the pot for cracking as it does if in fact it of necessity cracks, let alone punish it for that which necessity dictates? Why or why not? What must be present for blame to be just?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

HP: Your illustration is indeed intriguing although I believe flawed. God blames man for sin and vows to punish it with eternal separation from Himself in Hell for it. In your illustration, can one blame the pot for cracking as it does if in fact it of necessity cracks, let alone punish it for that which necessity dictates? Why or why not? What must be present for blame to be just?

I'm sticking with the Classical view first noted by St. Augustine. We are born in sin though we have not sinned yet. As in my example we are born without ability to be righteous. (or an ability to be an uncracked vessel) We will so to speak crack. Inevitable. However, our sin is what we are accountable for and will be punished for. Or when we actually crack. Adam put us in this position of being born in sin Jesus restores us. Now I'm certain my example is less than accurate but its the best one I could come up with. And the question out there is a good one: "can you blame the pot for cracking ast it does if in fact it of necessity cracks?" I look at it from a different perspective. Mankind deserved to end with Adam. Yet instead of throwing man away he allowed for man to continue on that those yet to come may still gain eternal life as God intended it though flawed at inception. It actually adds a greater glory to God than not.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

"HP: can you blame the pot for cracking as it does if in fact it of necessity cracks?"

Thinkingstuff: I look at it from a different perspective. Mankind deserved to end with Adam. Yet instead of throwing man away he allowed for man to continue on that those yet to come may still gain eternal life as God intended it though flawed at inception. It actually adds a greater glory to God than not.

HP: Whatever the perspective you look at it from, if it makes a mockery of well established immutable principles of justice, your perspective is flawed. In order to be blamed or praised, man must have choice. If man is cracked from birth, sinful from birth without any psossibility of doing anything other than what he does, justice demands that no blame be attached whatsoever. Scripture verifies this principle in many different ways.
"Sin is the transgression of the law." "Where there is no law, sin is not imputed." "To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin." Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

 

[OldRegular]

What does Scripture say about the nature of fallen Man?

Psalms 53:3. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Isaiah 53:6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 64:6, 7
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

Romans 3:11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 1:16-32

 

[Thinkingstuff]

HP: Whatever the perspective you look at it from, if it makes a mockery of well established immutable principles of justice, your perspective is flawed. In order to be blamed or praised, man must have choice. If man is cracked from birth, sinful from birth without any psossibility of doing anything other than what he does, justice demands that no blame be attached whatsoever. Scripture verifies this principle in many different ways.
"Sin is the transgression of the law." "Where there is no law, sin is not imputed." "To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin." Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

First of all: What immutable principles of justice are you talking about? Second its not a mockery of Justice but an affront! Fortunately, for us! Grace permited man to exist after sin. And Grace fulfills justice itself through Christ Jesus. Third the verse you quoted is not overlooking sin because of admission of blindness and it isn't imputting because the lack of it rather there is no admission to the truth the pharisees find themselves in. If a man will not admit he is blind there is no help for him (in other words). The Book of Romans says this:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

There is no exuse for what can be known was enough. Then with respect to the law here

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law....15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

people are still condemned because they can't even obey the observable law not given by special revelation (like the Torah). So the law shows us our blindness not change our position

20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

This is what I consider immutable

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."... 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

And this is what psalm 51:5 says

5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thinkingstuff; First of all: What immutable principles of justice are you talking about?

HP: When one attaches guilt and punishment where no choice exists, it violates this principle of immutable justice: In order to do anything praiseworthy or blameworthy, man must have choice. With the confusion over what the word ‘choice’ consists of, I must also add that ‘choice’ is not simply the results of ‘doing as one wills,’ (a purely Calvinistic notion) but rather man must have the ability to choose something other than he does under the very same set of circumstances in order for choice to be present. Man has to be the first cause of his moral intents for choice to actually exist and blame or praise attached to them.