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The "Necessity" of the Virgin Birth
- Thread starter Aaron
- Start date
Incorrect. The Virgin Birth is necessary because of the pre-existence of Christ. At conception, a new person comes into being (traducianism). If Christ was conceived normally, then it would be a completely new person. But Christ being God was eternal. He pre-existed. Therefore, he had to be virgin born.
at 1:20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
What part of "conceived" are we missing here?
What part of "conceived" are we missing here?
Pastor Larry said:
Christ's human body has always existed? I didn't know that - it's a new teaching to me.
The virgin birth was not a necessity for God to fulfill his purpose.
It WAS a necessity because God told us that it was how the Messiah would come. Since God cannot lie, He would not have given us that prophecy then gone against it. He could have chosen for the Messiah to show up out of a rock - that wouldn't have been a problem at all for God. But He told us the Messiah would come from a virgin, not a rock.
New to me too. That's not what I said. A human consists of both immaterial and material. Christ has always existed, but did not have a body. When conception takes place, both the body and soul, the material and immaterial are created. If Jesus had had a normal human conception, it would have created both body and soul, and then when Jesus came into the body, you would have had a real schizophrenic -- two persons in one body. That is why the virgin birth is a theological necessity.
Um, it would have been a huge problem because rocks don't bring forth humans. Only humans bring forth humans, and for Christ to atone for sin, he has to become flesh and blood (Hebrew 2, 4).
Pastor Larry said:
Well, I certainly think that Jesus could have indwelt the newly created human body without yet another soul being created. I don't think that would have been a problem for the One who creates souls.
I agree - yet God could have certainly chosen to do such. I agree that God placed an order and prophecy in place that the redeemer of all mankind would be one of them and as such, to say that Jesus was not of the flesh of any human that has existed denies prophecy. "Seed" is a physical thing - and Jesus would be of the "seed" of woman. That certainly says a lot to me.
So, when is original sin imposed on the human birth? It can't be at conception. Jesus was fully God and fully man, yet without sin, because the very presence of God precludes the presence of sin.
I can't argue any further because BaptistBoard rules forbid me..so half an argument is no argument at all, hence what I said earlier debate is pointless..............
Cheers,
Jim
I can't argue any further because BaptistBoard rules forbid me..so half an argument is no argument at all, hence what I said earlier debate is pointless..............
Cheers,
Jim
Christ's virgin birth is a necessity on (2) levels:
1. It fulfills a specific prophecy that pointed to the coming Messiah. If Jesus was not born of a virgin (speaking literally, as some translate the terminology "young girl" which is an extremely poor rendering) He could not be the promised Messiah.
2. The virgin birth is essential to Jesus being free from "original sin" that is passed down generationally in a "biological" sense. If Jesus is conceived in the "traditional" manner, He would have been subject to being born with a nature tainted with a sin nature. If that is accepted, then even if Jesus lived a "sinless" life behaviorally, He could not have gone to the cross as the perfect lamb of God, making atonement impossible.
1. It fulfills a specific prophecy that pointed to the coming Messiah. If Jesus was not born of a virgin (speaking literally, as some translate the terminology "young girl" which is an extremely poor rendering) He could not be the promised Messiah.
2. The virgin birth is essential to Jesus being free from "original sin" that is passed down generationally in a "biological" sense. If Jesus is conceived in the "traditional" manner, He would have been subject to being born with a nature tainted with a sin nature. If that is accepted, then even if Jesus lived a "sinless" life behaviorally, He could not have gone to the cross as the perfect lamb of God, making atonement impossible.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Aaron said:
I don't know what IOW means but I disagree with this statement entirely.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
annsni said:
I think we as people within the contraints of time/space have a difficult understanding of certain things God talks about. We view time as linear. God does not. So I think the poster you're replying to is trying to incorporate Christophonies with preexistant body.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
annsni said:
I think you're delving into the realm of intrinsic impossibility. Like I said we view time with respect to a linear model. God doesn't. God sees time as a point. If something is already done can it be changed? So prophesy is reporting things that have already occured in Gods perspective but yet have to happen in our experience (for a lack of a better way of explaining it). The future is fixed and cannot change from this perspective.