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The New Humble Pope
- Thread starter Thousand Hills
- Start date
What the....he does not own this stuff personally. As the RCC has been around for oh .......about 2 millenia stuff is acquired, ask any housewife....:smilewinkgrin:
The pope is usually pretty humble bloke, shouldering the burden of the church here on Earth is pretty heavy, but he is no longer a private citizen....he does not have that luxury (poor chap).
The pope is usually pretty humble bloke, shouldering the burden of the church here on Earth is pretty heavy, but he is no longer a private citizen....he does not have that luxury (poor chap).
Thousand Hills
Active Member
You seem like a very sweet person and I always have enjoyed your posts, but come on now, comparing all of these luxuries to the yard sale items piling up in someone's garage is a wee bit of a stretch. :tonofbricks:
saturneptune
New Member
That is one of the unBiblical principle of hierarchies. There is enough authority to carry out God's work with the local church. Basically, Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Archbishops and other man made higher offices serve no purpose but to spend money. Why does there need to be millions of dollars spent on a Pope for example, for silly looking hats, expensive rings, and elaborate transportation? The office is not even supported by Scripture. One might as well take the money spent on the office of Pope and burn it. How many could have been reached for Jesus, how many hungry could have been fed, etc with that money?
To a lesser degree, that goes for Protestant hierarchies also. It also applies to cults with hirearchies like the Pentecostals, SDAs, JWs, Mormons, C of C, except for one thing, the local church itself in the case of a cult harms the Good News.
Churches were never meant to be a make work program. We are charged to be good stewards of God's money, not to recklessly spend it on extravigance on meaningless offices of the cloth.
To a lesser degree, that goes for Protestant hierarchies also. It also applies to cults with hirearchies like the Pentecostals, SDAs, JWs, Mormons, C of C, except for one thing, the local church itself in the case of a cult harms the Good News.
Churches were never meant to be a make work program. We are charged to be good stewards of God's money, not to recklessly spend it on extravigance on meaningless offices of the cloth.
This stuff has been gifted in the main by the people of the universal church since its inception. The people included kings and queens of catholic Europe, wealthy patrons etc. The church is a receptacle of the history of Christian civilisation.
The pomp and ceremony are hangovers from previous eras where the pope was counted among the heirachical European monarchies, as noted in any study of Christian civilisation.
Whilst it is easy to point the finger and say the church is wealthy,would you do as the Muslim extremists did in Afghanistan.....blow up the historically significant image of the Buddha, or during the suspression of the RCC in Britain destroy the flower of mediaeval art in the handwritten books simply to rip the bindings to pieces in order to steal the gold/silver leaf and often jewels that were incorporated with these priceless artifacts.
The treasures housed in the Vatican have been created "for the greater glory of God", a human desire to adorn the places of worship with beautiful things. Sometimes this has dominated people's minds rather than the most priceless treasure of all which is the Lord Jesus Christ. The church is filled with human beings and as such is flawed with human failings.
WestminsterMan
New Member
Including all benifits, how much does your pastor make? My priest gets a little over $20,000/year. Many Catholics priests/nuns/brothers have taken oaths of poverty and take nothing but what God gives them for sustenance. Further, you do know that the RCC is the BIGGEST charitable organization in the world, right?
Oops...
WM
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As Melanie stated, the Catholic Church is not as “rich” as some might think. Most of her “riches” are tied up in assets that were given as gifts.
The video suggests that the Church sell of it's art and give it to the poor. What happens after all the money is gone? Then where does that get us? The poor are still poor and now the Church’s art, buildings, etc. are in the hands of those that might not appreciate them or steward them as well as the Church. The “Church” isn’t just the hierarchy, it is all of us. The art, buildings, and even money is controlled by certain people, but belongs to all of us. The Pope and/or Bishops can’t just sell everything off because they think it is a good idea. The People of God have provided the Church with the riches she has. Therefore the people have a right to be able to have the intent of their donations honored. If I gave the Vatican a priceless work of art to preserve and they sold it to the highest bidder, I would be royally miffed.
The video is just more anti-Catholic garbage.
Including all benifits, how much does your pastor make? My priest gets a little over $20,000/year. Many Catholics priests/nuns/brothers have taken oaths of poverty and take nothing but what God gives them for sustenance. Further, you do know that the RCC is the BIGGEST charitable organization in the world, right?
Oops...
WM
:applause::applause:
Also, my wife just reminded me that the Lord does not seem to be offended by the use of lavish ornaments and paraments for His worship. Read about the furnishings of the temple. Was there ever an objection to this or was it suggested that the people sell off the temple furnishings and the proceeds be given to the poor? Seems like there is biblical precedence for buildings that glorify the Lord. My Baptist church had a huge collection of tacky but expensive artificial foilage in the front of the sanctuary and around the baptismal. Nobody was objecting to that!
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WestminsterMan
New Member
Perhaps they should read what Pope Pius XII did for the Jews during WWII. The Jews certianly know about it and are darned grateful. He melted down gold and silver artifacts stored in the Vatican and paid off the Nazis for every Jew he could save - perhaps thousands or tens of thousands.
Also, lest we forget... Oskar Schindler.
WM
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The RCC is sitting on trillions of dollars in assets.
When that money is gone - so also is world hunger.
The RCC spends 171 Billion each year to run its facilities - in America alone.
http://www.economist.com/node/21560536
in Christ,
Bob
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
This isn't true. Think of it this way. Lets say your church building cost today $250,000 (I'm low balling it). Lets say inflation is steady at 3% annually. Well in 700 years your church building would be worth? $242,101,400,807,465.1 How about selling your church then? The fact is in 700 years would your building have an actual value of that amount? Most likely not.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
So are you saying that you have done some sort of audit and found that the current resale value of the assets owned by the RCC is far below current estimates?
If so I am truly interested in the details.
in Christ,
Bob
WestminsterMan
New Member
The poor we will always have with us. Jesus said it Himself and selling of the assets of the RCC won't change that. As I said before - the RCC is the largest charitable organization on the planet. So, why should they sell off anything? They already give more and do more than anyone else on the planet bar-none.
WM
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The gift of perfume that Mary the Magdalene gave to Christ would not and could not solve world hunger. But the assets of the RCC might be able to do just that.
However the OP issue raised deals with more than the issue of solving world hunger with the trillions of dollars in RCC assets. The issue deals with the contrast between the humble life of Christ and that of the Pope.
But even more - in the case of the current Pope. How does a Jesuit with a vow of living with humble means - or poverty or something of the sort - and with a vow of not serving in public office - work as a Pope?
Who is the Pope's confessor - a fellow Jesuit? Is that by policy? Law? That a Pope must confess to a Jesuit Priest?
in Christ,
Bob
However the OP issue raised deals with more than the issue of solving world hunger with the trillions of dollars in RCC assets. The issue deals with the contrast between the humble life of Christ and that of the Pope.
But even more - in the case of the current Pope. How does a Jesuit with a vow of living with humble means - or poverty or something of the sort - and with a vow of not serving in public office - work as a Pope?
Who is the Pope's confessor - a fellow Jesuit? Is that by policy? Law? That a Pope must confess to a Jesuit Priest?
in Christ,
Bob
WestminsterMan
New Member
If there are people in the world who have no means - no natural resources - no government that gives a darn about freedom, then no amount of money will free them and allow prosperity. The founding fathers knew this.
His vow is as follows: to be the servant of the servants of God. And he does live by humble means. He owns little and what he accumulates as Pope stays in the Church - it always has.
It is my understanding that the Pope like any Priest, Bishop, etc. can have his confessions heard by any validly ordained priest. I don't think that it has to be a Jesuit. Perhaps TS can better answer this question.
Thanks,
WM
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
You are correct. Any validly ordained priest can take the Pope's confession. The reason he probably confesses to a Jesuit priest probably has to do with the fact that the Pope is from the Jesuit Order. but there is no "law" that requires him to confess only to a Jesuit. However, I don't know that he does confess to a Jesuit. I think its an assumption on BobRyan's part.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
See this argument about the "Wealth" of the Catholic Church is actually from a false premise. The truth of the Matter is in Europe hundreds of years ago people wanted to glorify God thus Cathedrals were built, art work was made, and people generally gave their best materials and work to glorify God to their best ability. The Church's and art work in Europe testify to this. And since this was done out of love of God these were for the Church by members of the Church. These were the active places for worship in Europe like modern day churches. Now during the Protestant reformation many of the Cathedrals and churches were actually confiscated by protestant governments like England, Holland, and the Netherlands. Because just like Bobryan the protestant governments thought of the churches and property of the Church was wealth they could make their own. Henry for instance closed all the monasteries and took their property. Took all the Catholic Churches and all the property of the Catholic Church and you know what. Not one poor person was assuaged in England much less the world. In Fact Henry squandered the confiscated wealth and died leaving England in much debt. So not all the property perceived to be Catholic property is actually Catholic Property but belongs to the secular European governments. Thus diminishing its wealth. The Churches that belong to the Church are used for their intended purposes which is worship. Interestingly, enough of European governments understand that the Church isn't as "wealthy" as is perceived as many of the Churches and art work no longer belong to the church and have been taken over by European governments and wealthy individuals over the years, that instead of taking away more churches and property countries like Spain are talking about taxing the Church for property that doesn't have the value (apart from historical value) one might think. Spain knows this and knows it would get much more by taxing the Church. Germany already takes the churches there. And in fact if you are a member of a Church you must pay an additional tax. So the supposed wealth of the Catholic Church is over stated. Secondly, it shows a disrespect for the people who gave the church the property to begin with. Bobryan is disingenuous because he doesn't suggest SDA sell all their property to feed the poor. The fact is more than any other group (or country) the Catholic Church has given more money, time, man power, to care for the poor of the world. Much of the worlds poor are caused by despots and cruel regimes. Not by lack of funds. The United States didn't learn that lesson in Somalia. All the food that was to go to the poor there were feeding warlords troops. We sent in troops to ensure proper distribution of supplies to needy people. And we got our soldiers dragged through the streets as a thank you.
A priest is a priest....whether he is a diocese priest, a member of a religious order such as the Society of Jesus, Order of Preachers, a bishop, cardinal or pope.
The pope could be confessed by any priest. Historically, the pope has often confessed DAILY....more for the graces received than from any utter wickedness. He offers Mass daily as is the requirement for all priests, whether it is public or private is a matter of schedules I would imagine.
Why is the RCC apparently holding the key to solving world poverty? Surely, if the squillons squandered on military ordinance was redirected that too would help relieve poverty. In reality, world poverty is solvable if there was the WILL to do so. However, the way economies and business is directed, it is NOT in the interest of business to do so....hello!!! we would have to give folk in the so called third world living wages....business will say then prices would rise, how about the novel concept of NOT screwing out the HIGHEST profit, to benefit a few percent.
The pope could be confessed by any priest. Historically, the pope has often confessed DAILY....more for the graces received than from any utter wickedness. He offers Mass daily as is the requirement for all priests, whether it is public or private is a matter of schedules I would imagine.
Why is the RCC apparently holding the key to solving world poverty? Surely, if the squillons squandered on military ordinance was redirected that too would help relieve poverty. In reality, world poverty is solvable if there was the WILL to do so. However, the way economies and business is directed, it is NOT in the interest of business to do so....hello!!! we would have to give folk in the so called third world living wages....business will say then prices would rise, how about the novel concept of NOT screwing out the HIGHEST profit, to benefit a few percent.