The Poison of Dragons

Oh look our favorite drive by poster has graced us with his presence yet again. Before I respond to your OP, will you actually come back and respond to posts?

 

Do you, sir, have ANY idea how many threads have been devoted to this subject? This is deja vu all over again....

The board has a search engine. Put in the word 'alcohol'.

 

I'm with Helen. :thumbs: Thought about responding, but yeah, it's kind of worn out. Not really worth the effort to restate the same things. Use the search.

 

Ok, I changed my mind. Since you're apparently an expert on the subject, I was wondering what your thoughts are on the fact that this type of mindset is relatively new, historically speaking? It wasn't until the late 1800's when Mr. Welch made pasteurized grape juice where this type of mindset popped up. Prior to that, hardly anybody had a problem with it. Nobody read into things like the way people like you do now. Why? We're talking about nearly all Christians spanning hundreds and hundreds of years. Can you really say that you are now able to easily deduct messages from the bible that were undecipherable for all that time? Even now the arguments are subjective and debatable, but my concern is that if it's so obvious to you guys, why was it not so obvious for so long? If "wine" has always been "grape juice" as you probably think, then why did Mr. Welch have any reason to invent his concoction? There wouldn't have been. When exactly did we lose the recipe for the so called "good wine" that didn't have any alcohol? Sometime between the year 33 and the late 1800's right? Right.

 

keep in mind...when this guy says "sermon"--he means screaming fits, interspersed with ridiculous stunts that scare young children.

Just thought I'd clear things up a bit.

I ditto that this has been hashed ad nauseum in recent days. I see no need for round # 2,269. But that's just me.

Carry on, and let's not overfeed the trolls.

 

I wonder if he smashed wine bottles with a baseball bat during the "sermon".

I am still waiting for somebody to tell me a way to remove levan out of fresh grape juice besides the two ways I know about. Pastorization (not invented) OR ferment until alcohol rises to the level where it kills the levan around %14.

Or tell me why they could have levan during Passover week.

:BangHead: This is what this debate is like :BangHead:

 

If you open the air tight container that juice is in and do not refrigerate it then you will quickly have alcoholic wine.

Did they have air tight containers at the time? Did they have refrigeration?

 

Sir.
You did not answer my question. My spelling mistakes have nothing to do with the debate and you are only trying to side track and avoid the issues I brought up.

 

I thought this thread was going to be about the "dragons" in our churches that want to hold to the old way of doing things even though they don't work... they drag on the work done at church...

OH wait... it is.

 

Thank you sanderson for coming back to debate.. .that is great.

 

So how did they get the leaven out of the grape juice? And is there any historical account of the time that describes the process?

Look if you have new insite based in fact then I am willing to examin it. And consider it with an open mind. But it has to be based in fact not tradition. Fair enough.

 

OK, here goes...some suggestions:

• Mr. Anderson, try joining threads already in discussion. As Helen said, there's a ton of booze threads. Post in one of those. Take time to find out what's being discussed.
• One reason you're not engaged in conversation is your track record...post a link and leave. Most of us aren't going to spend an hour listening to a "sermon" by someone we don't know. Give us the pertinent points in a post, and then come back and discuss it.
• I have yet to see a sustained, civil conversation involving you. How about asking and answering questions...engaging in discussion...sharpening yourself as you learn from others? Oh wait...never mind...you've already got it all figured out. Oh well.
• Quite honestly, you're mean-spirited. You belittle other Christians (I've heard some of your rants in your sermons). Who needs that? If anyone questions you, or points out a flaw in your logic, you either attack them or play the victim.
• Some of your theology is positively goofy. You say that the King James Version of the Bible is God. You claim the KJV corrects the Greek. You claim homosexuals cannot be saved (please note--we're not referring to whether they are currently saved...you claim that God will not save someone who is a homosexual!), and advocate the death penalty for them. Scary.
• You use bad hermeneutics. You preach, "television is sinful." You preach, "classical music is sinful (SOURCE)." Without a shred of scriptural proof--but rather verse-plucking, eisegesis, proof-texting, logical fallacies, and other twisting of theology and thought--you make your points. And when you need emphasis, you scream. Or smash TV's. BTW...I listened to that one. You did scare those children when you smashed the set. (Furthermore, since the computer is the source of as least as much evil as the TV, why don't you smash your Dell? Just asking...)
• You promote heresy. You said this: SOURCE "I have one God - the King James Bible." God and the Bible (or one version) are not one and the same. The Bible is the Word of God...but it is not God.
• You spend a lot of your time (and even have a yellow-pages ad) that reminds me of the pharisee...thankful that you're not like (gasp) them. Quit comparing yourselves to "liberals" (definition: anyone who disagrees with you on any point) and compare yourself to the One Standard that matters...Jesus Christ.
• Finally, you are so bound up by extra-biblical legalism that it's impossible to converse with you (even if you do stick around); since you can't differentiate between true Biblical principles and your added regulations, it's pointless to try.

So I guess I'm saying...maybe one day we can discuss things. But because of your track record, today ain't your day. Tomorrow ain't looking too good, either.

 

Agree with rbell there.
Heck, I emailed you through a link in your website, sanderson, many generations ago to let's privately discuss some things hoping you and I can do that, granting you the benefit of a doubt that maybe some on this board are just being mean and sarcastic to you but you didn't bother to even respond.
Next time you post, try starting your post with a promise to stick around, some apologies, and then maybe we can all of us make our days, eh ?

 

http://www.welchs.com/company/company_history.html

"1869 Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, a physician and dentist by profession, successfully pasteurizes Concord grape juice to produce an "unfermented sacramental wine" for fellow parishioners at his church in Vineland, N.J., where he is communion steward. His achievement marks the beginning of the processed fruit juice industry."

Welch made that specifically because he didn't want to drink alcoholic wine during communion. Prior to that date it was solely alcoholic, at least for a really long time. This fact is undisputed. So, with that being the case, that must mean that humans forgot how to make this unfermented wine. If it was common knowledge, and had always been, why did Mr. Welch feel the need to reinvent "unfermented sacramental wine"??? He wouldn't have. By contrast, this was a HUGE deal. It wouldn't have been any type of deal at all if "unfermented sacramental wine" was already commonplace.

 

I bet Sanderson disputes it... of course without any facts...

When you don't use facts to back up your beliefs.... you are lying.

 

Pastor, do you call members of your congregation ignorant and insane if they dare to disagree with you?