The Pot vs. The Kettle (Who is Black?!) Round 7,390

rev. 22:17 doesn't disprove calvinism. i agree with it wholeheartedly. whosoever will may come. Calvinism doesn't deny this powerful alter call. it merely clarifies that no one will unless they are convinced (made willing). 2 peter 3:9 is also not a problem for calvinism. Even if the verse is referring to every single person that ever existed (I believe it isn't- but assuming it is), God can desire all men to be saved and not save all men because many times His desires are different than His ultimate will. I'm quite sure He doesn't desire His children to sin- but He allows it.

Your attempt at marrying the two sides of theology fails however. you can't have your cake and eat it too. either salvation is all of grace, or all of will. while a willful acceptance is a part of salvation, no man can will his own salvation.

 

For ALL "OTHERS"

Nothing contained here that restricts who can or cannot believe. No indication from God the Son, that there is such a thing as election. Nothing here by the Son of God that indicates that man is anything but fully able to believe. Nothing here about man being Totally depraved, and not willing to believe in Him.

It is pure foolishness to speculate otherwise!

 

What in those verses indicate that man is "fully able to believe"?

 

Hi Larry;

What verse says man is not able to believe?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

"Whosoever believeth", "Whoever believes", "Whoever does not believe"

Ya see Larry, Jesus would not put that choice before man if man was not capable of making the choice, and man is capable of believing or that would not be a choice!

 

So if I say, If you can get here by 12:15 I will buy you lunch, is that a real offer? Of course it is. I will buy lunch for everyone who can get here by 12:15.

But more importantly, if you have been paying attention, you know that Calvinists believe man is capable of making the choice, and taht choice will always be to reject Christ. He can do whatever he wants to do. Why do you keep wanting to take man's will out of it? I don't understand that. God will save whoever is willing to come, whoever believes, but you have to actually believe. He will not save any who don't believe.

Remember, it is unbiblical to say that an obligation implies ability. Man has the obligation to be perfect (Matt 5:44); he does not have the ability.

 

I wasn't aware that was the topic here, nor do I grant the premise. Man is able to believe. In fact, he does believe. He believes his way is better than God's way. And until God regenerates him, he will continue to believe that.

The Bible tells us that unsaved man is "unable to please God." Since, belief for salvation is pleasing to God, and since man is unable to please God, that means he is unable to believe for salvation. It is a moral inability, because sin has corrupted his mind (Eph 4:17-19).

Do you actually every study these verses? It doesn't seem like it.

 

So if I say, If you can get here by 12:15 I will buy you lunch, is that a real offer? Of course it is. I will buy lunch for everyone who can get here by 12:15.

But more importantly, if you have been paying attention, you know that Calvinists believe man is capable of making the choice, and taht choice will always be to reject Christ. He can do whatever he wants to do. Why do you keep wanting to take man's will out of it? I don't understand that. God will save whoever is willing to come, whoever believes, but you have to actually believe. He will not save any who don't believe.

Remember, it is unbiblical to say that an obligation implies ability. Man has the obligation to be perfect (Matt 5:44); he does not have the ability. </font>[/QUOTE]You are pointing you accusatory finger at the wrong person regarding "Man's will"! It has been my stance since I first arrived that Man's salvation is a matter of man's will to choose to believe in God and thereby have the free gift of salvation offered by God to those who do believe so long as they continue in their belief through to the end of their natural life, the first death. Those who along the way, lose their faith in God also lose their salvation.

 

Whetstone, there you go again with your "spin" on the Words of Scripture and their plain meanings. "i agree with it wholeheartedly. whosoever will may come." "Whoever" you say in the "unlimited" sense, but you then "limit" this by the Atonement. You you guys really that blind? You keep insisting that the Gospel offer is to everyone without exception, which is what the Bible says. But, then you say that God has not willed that all could be saved, though He says welcome all, because the Atonement is not for everyone.

You guys are as confused as the Jehovah's Witnesses are about Jesus Christ

 

I wasn't aware that was the topic here, nor do I grant the premise. Man is able to believe. In fact, he does believe. He believes his way is better than God's way. And until God regenerates him, he will continue to believe that.

The Bible tells us that unsaved man is "unable to please God." Since, belief for salvation is pleasing to God, and since man is unable to please God, that means he is unable to believe for salvation. It is a moral inability, because sin has corrupted his mind (Eph 4:17-19).

Do you actually every study these verses? It doesn't seem like it. </font>[/QUOTE]Larry, you DO talk a load of nonsense sometimes. But this is expected from Calvinists. I know many unbelievers that DO NOT think that their ways are better than God's. They may not be able to see God's way as the better option, but that does NOT mean that they think what you say they do. As a pastor you must be aware that there are many who go to Church every Sunday, and then for the Bible study and prayer meeting, etc. and yet are NOT saved. They agree that God's ways are perfect, but have not as yet submitted to this.

Lets try to argue with some sense, please

 

I am not pointing my accusatory finger at anyone. Since you first arrived, you have been wrong on this issue becuase you have denied what Scripture teaches about man's will. You have indicated that you believe that man's will was unaffected by sin. Scripture teaches differently as we have shown many times. You believe that God loses those who come to him in faith, but God says differently.

 

Nice slur ... totally unfouneded however. The fact that you don't understand it or accept it doesn't mean it's nonsense.

They don't see God's way as the better option but they don't think their way is better? And you accuse me of not making sense???? Seriously, Icthus, did you even think about that before you wrote it?

Bad thinking. If someone truly believes that God's way is the only way, then they will respond to it. To do otherwise is irrational and immoral. If they don't submit to God's way, it is evidence that they think their own way is better.

I have. You just demonstrated in a wonderfully unexpected way that you don't. You contradicted yourself.

 

I must hold back my temptation to drag Romans Chapter 8 into this! ROFL!

 

I am not pointing my accusatory finger at anyone. Since you first arrived, you have been wrong on this issue becuase you have denied what Scripture teaches about man's will. You have indicated that you believe that man's will was unaffected by sin. Scripture teaches differently as we have shown many times. You believe that God loses those who come to him in faith, but God says differently. </font>[/QUOTE]Simply not true Larry! I am the one who has been saying that "the fall" did not change man from the human creature that God created to now! The Fall separated man from God because sin cannot coexist with holiness!

You are confused!

 

Hi Larry;

Larry that isn't so. Man does have the ability to be perfect with the help of Christ. Job didn't have His help and he was perfect.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Now I make no claims to being perfect on my own. I realize that sometimes my flesh has it's way. But old Job was perfect and he was only a man who Loved God enough to take care that he didn't go against the Father. If Job could be perfect then so can anyone who desires to be.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

You mean with the normal Calvinistic twisting of the Scriptures there?

 

Larry wrote

"Remember, it is unbiblical to say that an obligation implies ability. Man has the obligation to be perfect (Matt 5:44); he does not have the ability"

More double-talk. God obliges that man be perfect, but has not made man to have the ability to do so. Yeh, so God expects the impossible from man, right?

I really don't know what Bible you use, and you teaches you. But most of your posts cause real concern that you are actually a pastor. Poor, misled sheep!

 

Are all you Calvinist Naysayers competing for a "He who can twist the scriptures the most" award?????

If it was possiable to wrestle it from my calvinist brothers ...maybe. But just like clintenese...what is is and u all with your what all is, is too much of an illogical debate! I leave that title to you all as the unchallenaged world champs.