The Power of God's Word in Salvation - For Calvinists

[Skandelon]

Moving it here killed it.

How do I make a formal request to move it back to the "theology" discussions? This is a discussion about theology, not denominations. There are both Calvinists and non-Calvinists in the baptist world, but Calvinists are not a "denominational" group, it is a soteriological discussion.

 

[BobRyan]

I have recently being doing a study on the power of the word in converting the soul and have been confronted by the well known Calvinistic doctrine of Total Depravity (or Total Inability).

I think we all agree that Adam's Fall lead to a huge negative impact upon the nature of mankind, but what in scripture would lead anyone to believe that the powerful words of our God are not sufficient to enable a response from fallen creatures?

Calvinists insist that a man must be born again (regenerated) in order to respond in faith, but I just don't see that taught in scripture. In fact, I see quite the opposite. The Bible tells us to "believe so that we may have life," not the other way around.

Are there any Calvinists here who could please help me to understand why you all have come to these conclusions. I'm not looking to fight anyone, just a civil Christ-like discussion among brothers in Christ. Thanks.

Your thread title seems to say "Arminians do not read this" - but that is clearly not the intent here so - I am going to post on this.

You are 100% correct!

In fact Romans 10 SHOWS that the "sequence" is belief THEN salvation.

Christ said "I will DRAW ALL MANKIND UNTO ME" John 12:32 for Christ is the one that coming into the world "Enlightens EVERY one of mankind" John 1. So "yes" it is supernatural "enabling" but it is done to ALL mankind - without FIRST causing all mankind to be "born again"!!

God is "able" and as His Word says "God Does"!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bob Ryan: Christ said "I will DRAW ALL MANKIND UNTO ME" John 12:32 for Christ is the one that coming into the world "Enlightens EVERY one of mankind" John 1. So "yes" it is supernatural "enabling" but it is done to ALL mankind - without FIRST causing all mankind to be "born again"!!

HP: In all due respect to the text, can we quote this verse in context, leaving out the first part? “If I be lifted up.” I do not see this verse supporting that all in actuality have the gospel presented to them. God is under no obligation to offer the gospel to any. He is under obligation, if He is to blame or praise men for their actions, to grant the necessary abilities to obey along with the knowledge of what is required to them, but is not under any obligation to offer them a pardon. I believe that many have lived, and some even are alive today, that have not heard the good news nor will ever hear the good news. Does not Scripture clearly state ‘Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” ?

God’s provision in salvation is sufficient for all, but His mercy in salvation is indeed selective. Not selective as the Calvinist might have us to believe, as in predestination of the elect and damned apart from man's will being involved, but still selective in the sense that only some will hear and have the opportunity to accept while others will simply be judged for their willing disobedience to the commands of God they intuitively understood.

All men have been enlightened to some degree as to what it is that God requires of them, but that is not to say that they have been enlightened as to the ‘gospel message.’

Salvation again is truly sufficient for all, and all, if they will hear, repent, believe, may come to a saving knowledge of Christ. For reasons not entirely understood by to me, God has placed upon us the responsibility of sharing the good news with the lost world. If we fail our responsibility in this, some will not hear that might have heard and responded if they would have been afforded that opportunity. We are commanded to go and share the good news, and that IF we lift up Christ, all men will be drawn (not saved) to Himself.

 

[BobRyan]

Speaking of John 12:32 and ALL MANKIND drawn to Christ --

HP said --
I do not see this verse supporting that all in actuality have the gospel presented to them.

True. Nothing about John 1 (Christ is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERYONE of mankind) or John 12:32 ( I will draw ALL MANKIND to ME) or John 16 (The Spirit CONVICTS THE WORLD of sin AND righteousness AND judgment) that says "ALL get the full story of the Gospel"!

I would never claim such a thing.

Rather I claim the ALL mankind scope of Romans 10 for this promise as well as the ALL of John 1 and John 12.

God works on ALL even though ALL don't have a fully informed story to go along with the indwelling work of God.

God IS under obligation to be TRUE to His OWN WORD as it turns out! God says His word IS reliable - IS trustworthy and CAN NOT be broken!

you can believe it.

. I believe that many have lived, and some even are alive today, that have not heard the good news nor will ever hear the good news.

But NONE are alive nor have lived that were not DRAWN to God that were not ENLIGHTENED by Christ that were not CONVICTED by the Holy Spirit.

Does not Romans 10 show this clearly ALONG With these other texts?

In Romans 10 we see the basics of the ONE Gospel message that goes into all the World via nature.

Rom 10

12 for there is no distinction between Jew and greek; for the same lord is lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on him;
13 for “whoever will call on the name of the lord will be saved. ”
14how then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 how will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “how beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
16 however, they did not all heed the good news; for isaiah says, “lord, who has believed our report?”

Now the part everyone knows --

Romans 10
17

so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “their voice has gone out into all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows

Psalms 19

1 the heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.
2 day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 there is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard.
4 their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In them he has placed a tent for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

Clearly Paul is appealing (again) to nature's voice in declaring the truth of God - so that "they (the people - Jew and gentile) did hear" - fulfilling the
condition –

And using that Ps 19 context – Paul then continues…

Romans 10

vs 17so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

and this - is in perfect agreement with the opening context of the book of Romans - chapter 1.

Romans 1:

18 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unGodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20for since the creation of the world his invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Clearly - they are without excuse because God did manifest himself as described in the text and still they refused the God that "draws all men unto him".

21for even thoughthey knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

So although Paul points to the witness of God's creation in Ps 19 as proving that
Israel is "without excuse" and did have the opportunity to "believe" - he also points to the motive of jealousy as God's witness to non-Hebrew people results in salvation.

Romans 10
19but I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation,
by a nation without understanding will I anger you.”

20and Isaiah is very bold and says,
“I was found by those who did not seek me,
I became manifest to those who did not ask for me.” 21 but as for Israel he says, “all the day long i have stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

Again – Paul emphasis the Gospel message of Isaiah (the Gospel prophet) confirming Paul’s statement that the Gospel message was given and that men rejected it then as they do today.

Indeed - God's chosen race, royal priesthood, holy nation - seemed to be rebelling against the God that called them, that chose them - in spite of the witness we see proclaimed in the OT and in Psalms 19 regarding creation itself.

 

[BobRyan]

Whosoever Believes – is saved.

Romans 10

Rom 10:8 but what does it say? “the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved;

saved - salvation to those who believe. The fact that one who believes and is saved will continue to read and study and obey - does not abolish the fact of salvation just as stated above - at the time we believe.

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 for the scripture says, “whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.”

Salvation comes to the one who confesses and believes. Then we go on to follow in the works of obedience – including water Baptism


In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
#1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
#2. This is a step toward God in righteousness
#3. Confess that you know believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!

By contrast the “expected” Calvinist sequence is
#1. Regenerated by God – forgiven, born-again “Alive and IN Christ”.
#2. Discover that God has saved you and that you are already born-again.
#3. Believe in the one that has put you in this saved state of existence.
#4. Confess that you are not only born-again and alive-in Christ, but NOW you also believe!

Notice that the “expected” Arminian sequence also appears in Acts 26 -

Acts 26

16 'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
17 rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
18 to open their eyes[/b] so that they may turn from darkness to light[/b] and from the dominion of Satan to God[/b], that they may [b]receive forgiveness[/b] of sins and an inheritance[/b] among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

#1. Eyes opened by the preaching. Paul needs to go and be used by God to Open their eyes to truth.
#2. They need to CHOOSE to turn from darkness to light. (Christ is the one who coming into the world enlightens all mankind)
#3. And having turned – to be transferred FROM the dominion of Satan TO The dominion (Kingdom) of God. (Born again) Child of God.
#4. Having transitioned into God’s kingdom they are forgiven and saved.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bob Ryan,

We are not to agree in depth as that makes for little discussion. (Just kidding!) I like by far the most of what I hear you saying in these last posts. I will pay a lot closer attention to your posts in the future. I would just say that I for one differentiate between having ‘received the gospel message’, and having’received knowledge of God and His law.’ All have received one but not the other, IMO as I read Scripture and understand it as of today. I am not bound to any creed so I can change my beliefs in the future as God grants me light. I am free indeed!

 

[BobRyan]

I agree with that. The specific Gospel message is rich in detail about God and the substitutionary atoning work of Christ. No question that many have not heard that message and never will. But that does not limit God from going directly to "all mankind" and drawing them, and even enlightening them at the level of conscience and nature with "inspired thoughts" directly communicated by His Holy Spirit.

Often we suppose that the mission to evangelize is because "God can't do it or won't do it". But really the reason we evangelize is that God gives us the SAME love for our neighbor as He has and the same love of the truth. And the MORE truth they have the MORE they are "set free" from the bondage of error and lies told by Satan about who God is.

Ezekiel was told that if he did not go and tell and warn the wicked - they would die in their sins and their blood required at his hands. But those he was sent to ALREADY HAD Bibles and already knew of the one true God. So this is not an argument about people going to hell because God did not reach them. Rather God is ADDING wave upon wave of mercy and drawing and enlightenment for "God is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance".

Yet still - people will choose to reject salvation and die, though his 'drawing of all" enables them to choose light. Adam had the "ability" to choose right - he chose wrong "anyway". His "ability" was far greater than ours (admittedly) as a sinless holy human created in the image of God - STILL even HE could choose wrong and did.

The Calvinist model is "if you CAN choose wrong you will". The Arminian model is "If you CAN choose right - some will and God will not stop those who will-not from making a bad choice".

Matt 23 "Jerusalem HOW OFTEN I wanted to gather your children for protection ... but YOU would not"

In Christ,

Bob