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The Pre-Reformation Church?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ray Berrian, Jun 21, 2003.

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  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    'Emperor Constantine became a follower of Christ in A.D. 300; he transformed the legal position of the church from an outlaw organization, to the officially sanctioned state church . . . . Over the centuries the Roman state church adopted many Babylonian mystical religious features to appeal to these new pagan "converts." False pagan practices were introduced over the centuries including the veneration of images, {idols} false miracles and the elevation of the clergy above the worshipers . . . . Satanic attacks on the truth plus millions of Christians in Europe and Africa resisted the {Catholic} inquisition and religious corruption. The Waldenses, the Albigenses, the Cathari and many other groups of Bible believing Christians held to the apostolic faith despite centuries of trial, torture and death. They secretly copied manuscripts of the Bible and smuggled the Scriptures from city to city to share with the underground church. The act of reading the Bible was illegal according to official church law. In fact, it remained illegal for a layman to posses a Bible in Italy until 1870 . . . . {Remember when Catholics protested when I said the clergy chained the Bible to the pulpit and they said it was because they were concerned about someone stealing the Word of God} In the seventh century the ancient Waldenses lived in the high mountain valleys in inaccessible areas of northern Italy where they could worship Christ as the New Testament commanded . . . . The Waldenses possessed a manuscript dated A.D. 1120 called "A Treatise Concerning Antichrist" containing their understanding of Biblical prophecy . . . . In Provence, France, toward the end of the thirteenth century, the mediaeval Catholic Church launched a crusade against the Albigenses. They beheaded over fifty thousand Albigensian Christians during one twenty-four hour period because they would not renounce the true faith. The history of that tragic period reveals that over a million Christians were savagely tortured and killed in southern France alone. (Jones' History of the Christian Church, 1826). {end quote from the Canadian Dr. Grant R. Jeffrey's book, Prince of Darkness, Bantam Books, New York * Toronto* London* Sydney* Auckland; p. 20-22}

    Two of the crème de la crème of Biblical prophecy is this 353 page book from the pen of Dr. Jeffrey and Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost's "Things To Come" from Zondervan's Publishing House.
     
    #1 Ray Berrian, Jun 21, 2003
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Moses Maimonides wrote about future Jewish Messianic expectations in connection with the building of the Third Temple. In his fourteenth volume of the Mishneh Torah he declared, 'In the future the King Messiah will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will rebuild the Temple and gather the dispersed remnant of Israel.' (Halachah 11:1) Dr. Jeffrey, in "Prince of Darkness" Bantam Books, p. 42.{This will be the Great Tribulation Temple, says, Dr. Berrian.} After the desecration of this Temple by the antichrist [Matt. 24:15; Daniel 9:23,27; 12:11; II Thess. 2:4c] during the Great Tribulation a fourth Temple will be build by Jesus Christ days after His Second Coming. 'When He establishes the Kingdom He will build the fourth Temple north of Jerusalem as described in detail by Zechariah 6:12 and Ezekiel chapters 40-48.' (Dr. Grant R. Jeffrey)

    In Dr. Jeffrey's book he shows how the Talmud, The Apocalypse of Peter, The Didache, The Ascension of Isaiah, The Pseudo-Titus Epistle, Irenaeus, Jerome And Hippolytus have detailed accounts of the coming Pre-Tribulation view of eschatology. In other words, this view is apostolic and post-apostolic confirmed and grounded truth.

    The Didache was the record of the teachings of the early church and here is what it said in (section 16). ' . . . and then the world-deceiver shall appear {antichrist} as a son of God, and shall work signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall commit crimes such as have never been seen since the world began. Then shall created mankind come to the fire of testing, and many shall be offended and perish, but those who have endured in the faith shall be saved by the Christ. And then shall the signs of the truth appear, first, the sign of a rift in heaven, then the sign of the sound of a trumpet, and thirdly, a resurrection of the dead. But not of all, but as it was said, "The Lord will come and all his saints with him." (Dr. Berrian says this is a reference from Revelation 19:11) Then shall the world see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven.' (end quote from the Didache and Dr. Jeffrey's book, "Prince of Darkness" a reference to the future coming antichrist.

    Because of the lack of a printing press there were few Bibles and the Word of God was only interpreted by the Roman Catholic clergy. The Dark Ages insued and the eschatological truth was lost and concealed.
     
    #2 Ray Berrian, Jun 22, 2003
  3. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    History IS revealing isn't it !!!!
     
    #3 Singer, Jun 22, 2003
  4. WPutnam

    WPutnam <img src =/2122.jpg>

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    It sure is!

    Now, what you need to do if find some balance in the material you consume without question.

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    - Anima Christi -

    Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
    Body of Christ, save me.
    Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
    Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
    Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
    O good Jesus, hear me;
    Within Thy wounds hide me and permit
    me not to be separated from Thee.
    From the Wicked Foe defend me.
    And bid me to come to Thee,
    That with Thy Saints I may praise Thee,
    For ever and ever. Amen.
     
    #4 WPutnam, Jun 22, 2003
  5. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,

    Brother Ed
     
    #5 CatholicConvert, Jun 22, 2003
  6. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    Now, what you need to do if find some balance in the material you
    consume without question.


    And I would start by adhering to the Word of God (The Bible) or something
    fed to me by those who refute that the Word of God is sufficient unto
    salvation ???

    :rolleyes:
     
    #6 Singer, Jun 22, 2003
  7. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Catholic Convert,

    With all due respect where are your theological degrees from?

    At least Drs. Jeffrey, Walvoord, Pentecost, and Van Impe have studied all of these eschatological views.

    Quite frankly, who cares what Moses Maimonides says. He
    is NOT speaking from divine inspiration, and his racial
    prejudice as a Jew disqualifies him from any sort of
    objectivity regarding God's work on earth and the future of
    Judaism.

    Now, brother, try to convince me that you know the Old Testament better than a Jewish scholar.
     
    #7 Ray Berrian, Jun 22, 2003
  8. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Brother Ray --

    Returning your respect, may I say that all it takes for one to get a degree is to memorize all that is given him which supports a position. Thus we can have men with Presbyterian degrees, Baptist doctorates, Episcopalian D.D.'s, etc. etc. etc.

    Get my point? Does a degree confer correctness of doctrine?

    Sure, I have no degree, but I have been blessed with a pretty good mind and the Lord has given me some wonderful tools to use with that mind, such as Cruden's Concordance, Vine's Bible Dictionary, Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the NT, and other reading material.

    Now if I study the Bible with concordance in hand and find out that the word "aion" in Matthew 24 does NOT mean "world" as mistranslated by the KJV, but means instead "age", do I have to have a degree to put that knowledge to use? Am I incapable of thinking? You seem to infer that by pointing out my lack of degree.

    Furthermore, if I read in Matthew 16:28 that our Lord said He would return before all there listening to Him died, do I need a degree to understand that this is exactly what He meant? Do I need a degree to understand correlative and supportive verses which bolster that understanding, letting the Scriptures aid in interpreting the Scriptures?

    If I find conflict between Scriptures, do I need a degree to understand that a solution must be reached which brings unity of interpretation to all Scriptures? Only the preterist view does this. Premillenialism is so flawed and full of holes it isn't funny. And I discovered this as a premillenialist!!! The harder and deeper I studied into it, the worse it became. The chronology wouldn't fit at all, especially in Matthew 24 - 25!!!

    But I guess since I don't have a degree I should just sit down, shut up, and soak in what these men are teaching just like a good little SpongeBobEdPants.

    Oh well.

    Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,

    Brother Ed
     
    #8 CatholicConvert, Jun 22, 2003
  9. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    On this board I have not taken any position as to 'infant baptism.'

    I notice in Scripture that that the converts of John the Baptist were talking to one of the apostles and the apostle said, 'Have you received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?' And after they received the Holy Spirit the two were baptized in water. As far as adult baptism, people who come into the life of Christ and His church as adults, follow Christ's example and are obedient in this ordinance and His mandate to be baptised in water.

    You are right that I Corinthians chapter 15 is the same as I Thess. 4:17. Verse 16 indicates that only 'the dead in Christ' (saved people) will be raised from the dead at His coming for the church, which theologians had termed, the rapture. The wicked dead/the unjust dead/the lost souls who died without Christ will be physically raised from the dead after the Millennial Kingdom as documented by the Apostle John in Revelation 20:5. I am sure any junior high student can distinguish the idea of the 'rest of the dead' and that it might infer that there were some physically dead somewhere else who were raised by Christ previously. All of the lost souls will be, if you will, collected by Jesus Christ to stand before His Great White Throne Judgment seat duly documented in Revelation chapter twenty verse eleven.

    Deal with this verse and exegesis. 'But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

    Brother Ed, you and I can celebrate in our Lord that we are 'Blessed and holy because we will be part of His first resurrection.' [Rev. 20:6] We are not of those who will experience the 'second death.' [Revelation 20:6 & 14]
     
    #9 Ray Berrian, Jun 22, 2003
  10. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    You mean I don't need a degree to understand this? :D :D

    Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,


    Brother Ed
     
    #10 CatholicConvert, Jun 22, 2003
  11. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Brother Ed,

    Premillennialism is the correct view because with the Catholic view which is also entertained by many Protestant groups, suggests that we are now in the Kingdom Age.

    In the view of Amillennialism meaning without a millennium you will find yourself jamming or ignoring things like the rapture, possibly the Great Tribulation, the twenty-two catistrophic Divine judgments yet unfulfilled in our day and documented between Revelation chapters 6-18. You will have to jam in somewhere the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Marriage of the Lamb, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, the judgment of the Woman in scarlet, chapter 17, the judgment of political Babylon in Revelation chapter 18, the Second Coming of Christ, Satan being place in the bottomless pit and his subsequent, temporary release from there into the world, the 1,000 years reign of Christ, the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven, the judgment of all lost souls at the Great White Throne Judgment, and the wicked being escorted into Hell.

    These Divine realities do not fit into your no Millennium theory coming from the allegorist, St. Augustine, but they all fit easily into Biblical eschatology, namely Pre-Millennial theology. As noted on the Topic: Pre-Reformation Theology, or something to that affect, you can study yourself, as you so eloquently said, that the post-Apostolic fathers all knew thoroughly of Christ coming for His church and the Kingdom Age.

    If you are so moved study, "Things To Come," by Dr. Pentecost, Zondervan Publishing House and Dr. Jeffrey and his book, "Prince of Darkness." by Bantam Press.
     
    #11 Ray Berrian, Jun 22, 2003
  12. WPutnam

    WPutnam <img src =/2122.jpg>

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    And all this time, I thought we were talking about church history, history that occurred after the apostolic era!

    Now, do you want to think about it for a while and rethink your message, or do you have another
    non sequitur you want to lay on us?

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!
     
    #12 WPutnam, Jun 22, 2003
  13. Smoky

    Smoky Member

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    Yes, but a lot of these groups had heretical beliefs even worse than the Chatholics, some of them the reemurgence of ancient "Gnosticism". Also, many perpetrated untold bloodshed themselves! The truth is, that none of the Church, either Catholic or Protestant lived up to the standards Christian love given to us by our Lord.
     
    #13 Smoky, Jun 25, 2003
  14. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    In my reading, if found out that in the sixth century the Waldenses lived in protest and were a reactionary people against the great splendor and outright display of opulence in the existing medieval Roman Catholic Church. The Vatican still exhibits great wealth in spite of Catholic nations who sit in the lap of poverty. The Waldenses had poor preachers who published the 'Good News' of the Gospel and got into trouble with Catholic authorities because they denied and probably preached against purgatory, indulgences and prayers for the dead.

    In the twelfth century a group called the Albigensians also lived in community and even received the sacraments from the hands of Roman Catholic priests. And yet in 1233 Pope Gregory IX established an ecclesiastical system of legal investigation in Albigensian centers and placed this tribunal into the hands of the Dominicans. This was the birth of the most, cruel medieval Inquisition. After one hundred years of torture and death and tireless preaching of the friars, the Albigensians were annihilated and were no more visible in their communities in southern France. This is a summary of the underground church during these two centuries.
     
    #14 Ray Berrian, Jun 26, 2003
  15. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    In my reading, if found out that in the sixth century the Waldenses

    What have you been reading? The Waldenses first appeared in the 2nd half of the twelfth century, a bit later than the sixth century.

    In the twelfth century a group called the Albigensians also lived in community ... a summary of the underground church during these two centuries.

    Ray, firstly, they are not called Albigensians; the name of this extra-Christian religion is Albigensianism, and the adherents of this religion are called Albigenses.

    You seriously consider the Albigenses to be the underground church? Ray, I've already described who the Aligenses were to you in another thread. Why, after reading this, would you ever continue to think such an absurdity? (I would guess that it has something to do with a prejudice against Catholicism and not so much a respect for historical truth)

    In the thread entitled Purgatory Or The Judgment Seat of Christ?, I have already explained the following to you:

    "Albigensianism was not a Christian heresy, but an extra-Christian religion. What the Church combated was principles that led directly not only to the ruin of Christianity, but to the very extinction of the human race: basically, the Albigenses advocated and condoned a supreme threat threat to the social order (such as fraud, murder, and robbery) that is - in the order of justice - deserving of severe punishment. The Albigenses were dualists; they taught that the liberation of the soul from its captivity in the body is the true end of our being. To attain this end, suicide is commendable; it was customary among them in the form of the endura (starvation). The extinction of bodily life on the largest scale consistent with human existence is also a perfect aim. As generation propagates the slavery of the soul to the body, perpetual chastity should be practiced. Matrimonial intercourse is unlawful; concubinage, being of a less permanent nature, is preferable to marriage. Abandonment of his wife by the husband, or vice versa, is desirable. Generation was abhorred by the Albigenses even in the animal kingdom."

    Yet, you continue to assert that the Albigenses are part of the underground church, when they weren't even Christians to begin with! That, combined with the fact that you are ignorant with regard to their name and the century within which the Waldenses first appeared (you are six centuries off the mark!), I seriously doubt the quality of historical reading you have committed yourself to.
     
    #15 Carson Weber, Jun 26, 2003
  16. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    CatholicConvert,

    It seems you are taking scripture out of CONTEXT to make it say what you want it to say.
    As you can see in the KJV, the context declares that the Chief Priest and the Pharisees knew of whom Jesus said that the Kingdom of God would be removed, and it is not "the Jews", but the Priests and Pharisees, The politico-religious rulers of the Jews. The kingdom of God today does not reside in any priesthood but the Priesthood of believers! Blessed are the Meek for they shall inherit the earth. Thus it is not the "high and mighty", but the meek and lowly in whom the Kingdom of God is found.

     
    #16 Yelsew, Jun 26, 2003
  17. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Carson Weber,

    You may be correct about the date of either the Waldensians or the Albigensians. I should have documented things more carefully.

    Your view of these people not being Christian comes from your sources that have a bias toward Catholicism and the attrocities they fostered on human beings. You need not defend the Catholic Church in this matter, because I saw Pope John Paul on television apologizing with penitent heart for all of the destruction of human lives during this era.

    Oh, and if these people were so unorthodox why were they receiving the sacrament from the blessed hands of the Roman Catholic priests.

    No, like I said, apparently the Catholic church wanted absolute dominance and 100% acknowledgment of all of the doctrines sacred to your church. These people refused to believe in purgatory, indulgences, and prayers for the dead, kind of like our defiance against these human ideas coming from a human institution.

    Don't trust me, Carson, go to the internet and check out all of the sources relative to said subject. These are the sources that I have reviewed. See for yourself.
     
    #17 Ray Berrian, Jun 27, 2003
  18. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    Leonard Verduin's excellent monograph "The Reformers and Their Stepchildren" documents that there were anabaptist-type groups continually in existence throughout the era of catholic dominance, and identifies from catholic sources that up to half of the population of late middle ages Europe were members of these sects.

    Verduin also documents that most of these groups were orthodox on the main doctrines, but opposed RC views such as constantinianism, sacraments, etc.
     
    #18 Major B, Jun 27, 2003
  19. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi Ray,

    Youw rote, "Your view of these people not being Christian comes from your sources that have a bias toward Catholicism and the attrocities they fostered on human beings."

    It also comes from the fact that the Albigenses were dualists. You've been to seminary, yes? So, you know what a dualist professes, yes? A ThD degree, in and of itself, should be able to say, "Hey this guy can easily tell that Albigenses profess a non-Christian religion."

    You wrote, "Oh, and if these people were so unorthodox why were they receiving the sacrament from the blessed hands of the Roman Catholic priests."

    So, what's your point? That the Albigenses were orthodox? Have you been reading anything I've posted regarding their faith?

    "The Albigenses asserted the co-existence of two mutually opposed principles, one good, the other evil. The former is the creator of the spiritual, the latter of the material world. The bad principle is the source of all evil; natural phenomena, either ordinary like the growth of plants, or extraordinary as earthquakes, likewise moral disorders (war), must be attributed to him. He created the human body and is the author of sin, which springs from matter and not from the spirit. The Old Testament must be either partly or entirely ascribed to him; whereas the New Testament is the revelation of the beneficent God. The latter is the creator of human souls, which the bad principle imprisoned in material bodies after he had deceived them into leaving the kingdom of light. This earth is a place of punishment, the only hell that exists for the human soul. Punishment, however, is not everlasting; for all souls, being Divine in nature, must eventually be liberated. To accomplish this deliverance God sent upon earth Jesus Christ, who, although very perfect, like the Holy Ghost, is still a mere creature. The Redeemer could not take on a genuine human body, because he would thereby have come under the control of the evil principle. His body was, therefore, of celestial essence, and with it He penetrated the ear of Mary. It was only apparently that He was born from her and only apparently that He suffered. His redemption was not operative, but solely instructive. To enjoy its benefits, one must become a member of the Church of Christ (the Albigenses). Here below, it is not the Catholic sacraments but the peculiar ceremony of the Albigenses known as the consolamentum, or "consolation," that purifies the soul from all sin and ensures its immediate return to heaven. The resurrection of the body will not take place, since by its nature all flesh is evil."

    Ray, spare me the continued assertion that the Albigenses were Christians. Please, I beg you. This is ridiculous.

    Don't trust me, Carson, go to the internet and check out all of the sources relative to said subject. These are the sources that I have reviewed. See for yourself.

    Ray, I love naked historical truth. And from our preceeding dialogue on this thread, I'm a bit better grounded in it than you are at present.
     
    #19 Carson Weber, Jun 27, 2003
  20. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    Let me butt in to this argument...

    1. The Albigenses were, by all reliable historical accounts, heretical and not Christian.

    2. However, one of the names for the Albigenses (Catharer in German) was loosely applied by Catholic authorities to other groups who were proto-reformers. Not everybody who was called Albigensian was Albigensian. The Catholic authorities were so bugged by the preponderance of dissident groups that they were pretty free with epithets and violence. The (unofficial) motto of the US Special Ops folks, "Kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out," is a loose translation of a comment made by a Catholic Bishop before sacking and annihilating a city of the Albi. When his general pointed out that there were Catholics in the city as well, the Bishop replied, "Kill them all, God will take care of His own."

    Again, Verduin's book "The Reformers and Their Stepchildren," helps clear up a lot of misconceptions. His chapter names are the various epithets used by catholics against independent groups. He also has a useful distinction: "heretics" (with quotes) were not heretical, just anti-establishment and anti-catholic. Heretics (without quotes) refers to groups who were also far off the path doctrinally as to basic Christianity.
     
    #20 Major B, Jun 27, 2003
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