The Priesthood

[Ps104_33]

The word priest occurs numerous times in the New Testament and is always referring to an Old Testament priest, except in Hebrews where it refers to Christ as our "high priest". The word doesnt appear in any of Paul's epistles unless one believes that Paul wrote Hebrews. In the book of Revelation the word priest appears three times.

In Rev. 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

In Rev. 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

And in Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

To whom was the writer of Revelation referring to when he used the word priest in these verses?

 

[Carson Weber]

The author is referring to the People of God, or rather, the Christian faithful who serve as priests, prophets, and kings when they partake in the life of Christ, who is our Priest, Prophet, and King.

Catechism of the Catholic Church Paragraph 1546:

Christ, high priest and unique mediator, has made of the Church "a kingdom, priests for his God and Father." (Rev 1:6; Rev 5:9-10; Pet 2:5,9) The whole community of believers is, as such, priestly. The faithful exercise their baptismal priesthood through their participation, each according to his own vocation, in Christ's mission as priest, prophet, and king. Through the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation the faithful are "consecrated to be a holy priesthood." (Lumen Gentium 10:1)

 

[Ps104_33]

But what is the purpose of a priest. Isn't he a mediator between God and man? If, then, Revelation is talking of the Christian faithful, then I dont need to confess my sins to a priest I can go directly to God as it says in Hebrews. Isn't thet what the renting of the vail in the temple represented when Christ "gave up the ghost"? Matt 27:51
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
God was showing man that he could now go directly to HIm without the necessity of a priesthood.

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

The sacrifice of Christ did away with the Old testament priesthood and all Catholicism does is drag it back in.

I get kind of tired of all the doubletalk, Carson.

 

[GraceSaves]

It's not doubletalk. It's you seeing the word "priest," picking a Bible verse out, and rejecting all notions of the priesthood without really trying to understand the function of a Catholic (or other denominational) priest.

It's only doubletalk because you refuse to accept that what you believe might be wrong, and so don't give serious thought to the Catholic position.

Lutherans reject the priesthood...and yet the ordained minister is still the only one who can consecrate the bread and wine for communion. He is also the one who forgives the sins (in a corporate, often not private manner) of the congregation.

They do these seemingly "Catholic" functions, while still rejecting the priesthood.

Perhaps, as it typically goes, you don't understand the real purpose of a Catholic priest, and you don't care to. It's wrong by the very name of the office, right?

Catholics do not have to go through a priest (or anyone else) to speak with Jesus. Nor do they have to go to a priest to receive forgiveness of sins. But Christ gave his apostles the power to forgive and retain sins, so there MUST be something to that. Since God can forgive our sins, what might that function really be about?

Remember when Christ gave the apostles the power of binding and losing (excommunication)? What would be the grounds of excommunication? Wouldn't they be living in a state of grave sin without repenting? Thus, in order to remain in the Church, would you not have to confess this sin publically and repent and receive forgiveness? And whose going to do this? Wouldn't it be the minister, the one in charge of that particular house of God? Yeah, I think you'd agree with me.

Thus, when we fall away from the faith through serious sin, we must confess these sins publically. The "priest" has the joy of being able to speak Christ's forgiveness into the ears of the penitent and welcome them back into God's family. This is BINDING.

As for Spiritual sacrifices, that's a whole different topic's worth of discussion. In brief, we all make spiritual sacrifices and offerings to God. But the priest is the one to preside over the Lord's Supper. I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

 

[Ps104_33]

Lutherans reject the priesthood...and yet the ordained minister is still the only one who can consecrate the bread and wine for communion. He is also the one who forgives the sins (in a corporate, often not private manner) of the congregation.

Yeah, so? I'm not a Luthern either.

Catholics do not have to go through a priest (or anyone else) to speak with Jesus. Nor do they have to go to a priest to receive forgiveness of sins. But Christ gave his apostles the power to forgive and retain sins, so there MUST be something to that. Since God can forgive our sins, what might that function really be about?

Then why do it? (confess to a priest). Christ gave this power to all disciples, in the sense that we have the gospel and can lead others to Christ and they can have their sins forgiven.

Remember when Christ gave the apostles the power of binding and losing (excommunication)? What would be the grounds of excommunication? Wouldn't they be living in a state of grave sin without repenting? Thus, in order to remain in the Church, would you not have to confess this sin publically and repent and receive forgiveness? And whose going to do this? Wouldn't it be the minister, the one in charge of that particular house of God? Yeah, I think you'd agree with me

No I do not agree with you. Although it would be a violation of God's Word, a person doesnt even have to attend church at all and can ask for forgiveness. Can one not ask God for forgiveness in the privacy of their own prayer closet? Show me one example in the book of Acts of any of the epistles where you are told to confess to a priest. This is just typical of your kind of doubletalk. You convolute the Word of God to prove the confessional and then try to tell me that it is not necessary.

As for Spiritual sacrifices, that's a whole different topic's worth of discussion. In brief, we all make spiritual sacrifices and offerings to God. But the priest is the one to preside over the Lord's Supper. I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

Once again the word "priest" is an Old Testement concept and you cant find anything in NT Scripture to support it.

[ September 19, 2002, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: Ps104_33 ]

 

[Born Again Catholic]

PS 104 33

The apostle were given many charges proclaim the Gospel, Baptize, etc. Most non-Catholics have no problem with ther pastors carrying out these commisions in the present day yet they balk at there pators carrying out the commission in John 2o

21So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Lets say two men had commited adultery and they forgave the sins of one man but retained the sins of the other. How could have the apostles carried out this commission. Would they have based it on gossip, or would they have followed them back to ther bedrooms to see if they had repented and had stopped the ongoing sin. No the only reasonable way for them to carry out this commission is for them to talk to the sinners.

Even so the power is not theirs it is God's alone. God does not need us to carry out His ministry but God gives us the grace to participate in His ministry to others.

This is what a Baptist minister is doing when he baptizes someone or marries someone.

Is it the minister that makes the two become one flesh in marriage or is it God. Does the Bible require you go to a baptist minister to get married? Was it a commission of the apostles? If not why would you go to a minister to get married?

I hope this perspective helps

God Bless

[ September 22, 2002, 04:33 AM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]

 

[Ps104_33]

In another post, you gave every one the impression that you were ignorant of Baptist beliefs and now all of a sudden you're an expert. I knew you were a phony hypocrite when I saw that post. Your just another RC apologist/controversialist who comes on here full of your phony piety and acting dumb like you are trying to learn something and asking disingenuous questions and we only find out that you are asking questions that you already know the answer to. They all start out the same way, "oh, I'm just trying to learn about the Baptist beliefs" and the next thing you know youre coming up with all kinds of comparisons between Baptists and Catholics. If you are going to come on this board at least be honest about the reason and dont try to decieve anyone into having us believe you are someone that you are not.

 

[Ps104_33]

BTW, My wife and I were married by a JP. So, no, you dont have to get married by a minister.

 

[Chemnitz]

Lutherans reject the priesthood...and yet the ordained minister is still the only one who can consecrate the bread and wine for communion. He is also the one who forgives the sins (in a corporate, often not private manner) of the congregation.

Most of that is because of good order and practical pastoral care issues, not because we believe pastors have any special powers. So please do not equate Lutheran Pastors with RCC priests.

 

[Born Again Catholic]

PS 104 33

I apologize to you if you feel I had misled you, although I am ignorant of the specifics of Baptists belief I am not ignorant with the beliefs of my own church. In my second post on that topic I talked about my debates with non-denominational christians. I have never had a substantial theological discussion with a Baptist. Out here in CA Baptist don't seem to be as prevelant as non-denominational christians, or maybe they just keep to themselves more.

Although I have gotten a better idea I am still not quite sure I know what makes someone a Baptist or not, differences between Baptists and other non-catholic christaina that seem to be taken for granted here are not at all clear to me.

As the Catholic Church accepts the Baptism of other Christian churches. It was easy to say a Baptist minister is participating in God's ministry when he performs a baptism or marriage. It is not a matter of knowing your faith but mine.

I have no desire to debate you, my primary desire is to understand Baptists better so I can avoid the strife with my in-laws that is endemic to this board.

Rather than actually trying to understand how two reasonable people can disagree on there Christian beliefs there seems to be an unnatural desire to distrust each other and one-up-manship.

This is not the fate I want for my family relations there must be another course to choose.

PS 104 33. I hope your walk with the Lord leads you to peace. I will try to limit my responses to your questions in the future.

God Bless

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
In another post, you gave every one the impression that you were ignorant of Baptist beliefs and now all of a sudden you're an expert.

What did he say about "Baptist" beliefs? As far as I could see he was talking about his own beliefs.

I knew you were a phony hypocrite when I saw that post.

I missed that, Psalm. Could you point out the exact words that tipped you off?

Your just another RC apologist/controversialist who comes on here full of your phony piety and acting dumb like you are trying to learn something and asking disingenuous questions and we only find out that you are asking questions that you already know the answer to.

I missed that part too. What question did he ask that he already knew the answer too? That was his first post in this thread.

{QUOTE] They all start out the same way, "oh, I'm just trying to learn about the Baptist beliefs" and the next thing you know youre coming up with all kinds of comparisons between Baptists and Catholics.[/QUOTE]

And learning about the beliefs of others and questioning those beliefs or asking for clarifications are mutually exclusive?

If you are going to come on this board at least be honest about the reason and dont try to decieve anyone into having us believe you are someone that you are not.

This sort of judgement of another is kind of like judging if some else is save or not. In other words, you really are not in the position to be judging the motives or intent of others.

Ron

 

[Ps104_33]

Here are the questions from the other post.

1 - What areas do Catholics and Baptists, esp. Southern Baptists share a common belief.ie Virgin Birth, Trinity, etc

2 - What would be the biggest theological differences between a conservative non-denomnational Christian and a Southern Baptist.

3 - What is the role of Baptist ministers and church leaders. What if any authority do they have? How are they chosen?

They have trap written all over them, dont ya think?

 

[Ps104_33]

How about someone adequately answering my original question. So far since I've been on this board I've been told that Catholics must confess their sins to a priest and that they dont have to confess their sins to a priest. Which is it? If I go into my prayer closet and confess my sins directly to God, are my sins just as forgiven as a Catholics who goes to a priest or prays to Mary?
I would have more respect for Catholicism if you would all quit trying to have it both ways.

I,ve heard that "outside the Church (the Roman Catholic Church) their is no salvation". And now there is to be no witnessing to Jews and the Cathecism says Muslims are saved. More doubletalk.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Lutherans reject the priesthood...and yet the ordained minister is still the only one who can consecrate the bread and wine for communion. He is also the one who forgives the sins (in a corporate, often not private manner) of the congregation.

Most of that is because of good order and practical pastoral care issues, not because we believe pastors have any special powers. So please do not equate Lutheran Pastors with RCC priests.</font>[/QUOTE]Number one, I never equated the two. Number two, no lay person can administer communion. It takes an ordained Lutheran minister to do it. When there is not a minister present, a "reader service" is held. I spent 18 years in the Lutheran Church. I'm well aware of what goes on there.

Pastors have special abilities that follow their ordination, things that no one who is NOT ordained is allowed to do. Why is this?

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
How about someone adequately answering my original question. So far since I've been on this board I've been told that Catholics must confess their sins to a priest and that they dont have to confess their sins to a priest. Which is it? If I go into my prayer closet and confess my sins directly to God, are my sins just as forgiven as a Catholics who goes to a priest or prays to Mary?
I would have more respect for Catholicism if you would all quit trying to have it both ways.

I,ve heard that "outside the Church (the Roman Catholic Church) their is no salvation". And now there is to be no witnessing to Jews and the Cathecism says Muslims are saved. More doubletalk.

So which is worse? Our supposed double talk, or the fact that we've answered these questions in COUNTLESS posts with which you have participated? I do my best to show you the Catholic position...and then you pleasantly "forget" it so that you can claim you don't have a clue, and then reask the same questions over and over again. You have no desire to hear our side. If you did, you'd be a little more attentive.

Look at my first post on here. I answered your question about sins confessed to a priest. Sins that are grave enough that they'd separate you from the Church are sins that MUST be confessed to the minister of the Church. If you're openly committing adultry, and would not repent, would you not be excommunicated from the Church until you repented? And who would you repent to? Would you not have to approach your pastor and tell him how sorry you were before you'd be allowed back in? THAT'S WHAT THE SACRAMENT OF CONFESSION IS FOR. Sins that are grave enough that they begin to deprive you from God need to be confessed in a public fashion so that you can be, in a sense, reinstated to the Church and to the love of Christ. Until you confess, you're openly saying "I don't need that forgiveness, and I don't want to stop sinning like this!" It's not a hard concept at all.

We are NOT trying to have it both ways. You won't listen to our answers.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
Yeah, so? I'm not a Luthern either.

Wow, what a clever way to avoid what I said and a nonetheless appropriate analogy. Thanks, Psalm.

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
Once again the word "priest" is an Old Testement concept and you cant find anything in NT Scripture to support it.

The word "trinity" is not in the New Testament either.
I can't find evidence to support it? Umm, I think that's what we've been doing all along here. You may reject our evidence (you're perogative), but that doesn't give you the right to say we "can't find anything" to support it. That's just egotistical and rude, if not hateful and blind.

 

[Born Again Catholic]

Grace Saves

The peace of Jesus Christ be with you. The term Priest is used in the new testament. Its original and still its primary meaning in english was "christian elder" "presbyter" a term that can be found in the NT. In fact i believe the official title for priests in Latin is still "presbyteros" or something like that.

1913 Websters English dictionary

Priest (?), n. [OE. prest, preost, AS. preóst, fr. L. presbyter, Gr. elder, older, n., an elder, compar. of an old man, the first syllable of which is probably akin to L. pristinus. Cf. Pristine, Presbyter.] [1137]

1. (Christian Church) A presbyter elder; a minister; specifically: (a) (R. C. Ch. & Gr. Ch.) One who is authorized to consecrate the host and to say Mass; but especially, one of the lowest order possessing this power. Murdock. (b) (Ch. of Eng. & Prot. Epis. Ch.) A presbyter; one who belongs to the intermediate order between bishop and deacon. He is authorized to perform all ministerial services except those of ordination and confirmation.

God Bless

[ September 22, 2002, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]

 

[Ps104_33]

The word "trinity" is not in the New Testament either.
I can't find evidence to support it? Umm, I think that's what we've been doing all along here. You may reject our evidence (you're perogative), but that doesn't give you the right to say we "can't find anything" to support it. That's just egotistical and rude, if not hateful and blind.

Oh, the old standby. I am not going to deal with that now. Its been beaten like a dead horse.

The peace of Jesus Christ be with you. The term Priest is used constantly throughout the new testament. Its original and still its primary meaning in english was christian elder "presbyter" a term that can be found throughout the NT. In fact i believe the official title for priests in Latin is still "presbyteros" or something like that.

When I say priest I'm talking about a mediator between God and man not an overseer of a flock like a pastor bishop or elder. Where in the New Testament can you find anyone confessing to a priest. James says to confess our faults one to another. Basically you are saying that my sins cant be forgiven because I'm Baptist and I go directly to God for forgiveness instead of a mediator ( the priest)

If someone is caught in the act of adultery and the individual is under the conviction of the Hloy Spirit because of it he goes to God and begs for forgiveness and repents of that sin. He may go to the Pastor and the church to make it public and make it right with his brothers ans sisters in Christ.

 

[Chemnitz]

Number one, I never equated the two. Number two, no lay person can administer communion. It takes an ordained Lutheran minister to do it. When there is not a minister present, a "reader service" is held. I spent 18 years in the Lutheran Church. I'm well aware of what goes on there.

Pastors have special abilities that follow their ordination, things that no one who is NOT ordained is allowed to do. Why is this?

And in 18 yrs you never bothered to find out why things happen?

Pronunciation of absolution in corporate/private confession. Yes we use the words "as a called and ordained servant of the word..." however this is not a reflection of a belief that the forgiveness pronounced by the pastor is of any more validity or specialness than anybody else. What it is, is an acknowledgement that some people find more comfort in hearing such a proclamation from a pastor.

Administering of the sacraments is limited to pastors not because we believe ordination confers any special power to turn the elements into body and blood or any special power to confer the Holy Spirit in Baptism. Rather it is for maintance of good order and follows the example in Acts when they called men out of the fellowship to oversee distribution.

 

[GraceSaves]

Chemnitz,

So why would a person ever need to be ordained, intead of, for instance, merely elected by the congregation?