The Rapture and My Baptist Family

I used to be firmly on the side of a pre-trib rapture. However, I'm not as sure about that belief as I used to be.

 

I believe scripture teaches a post tribulation rapture. I will be quite happy, however, if I am wrong.

peace to youraying:

 

Pre-trib ratpure and try telling believers in China that there's no persecution and tribulation like what the disciples went through. Just because we don't see "physical" persecution and tribulation here in the US doesn't mean it's not happening elsewhere.

We've got to quit seeing the "church" through our tainted US glasses.

As far as the timing goes it can't be more than a couple of years away based on the timetable given in Scripture unless our calendars are REALLY messed up. We know they are a little messed up .

 

Pre-trib, but I'm not adament re: the rapture as I have seen scripture that can be interpreted to show otherwise, BUT, when all is taken in context, with a literal interpretation, my take is that this is BY FAR the most plausable scenario. Other options require too much "spiritualizing" of His word, IMNSHO, to be authentic.

 

Agreed! Sources I read estimate 250 million Christians persecuted in 2007.:tear:

 

Paul,

Your opinion notwithstanding, scripture says pretrib.

You may be thinking about or may consider yourself to be among the "virgins" who are left behind. They most certainly did not believe on Christ "that they might be saved" before the rapture (Mt 25:1-13, 2Thes 2:10). There WILL be church in the tribulation who, like Laodicea, will be "buying of Me gold, eyesalve, amd white raiment" (Rev 3:18) -- instead of "oil!" They are also likely the martyrs who appear beneath the altar in Rev 6:9.

As a pastor, I would suggest you look into this. There are doubtless many souls at stake and you wouldn't want to answer to negligence on this issue at the Bema (2Cor 5:10).

skypair

 

I used to be very dispensational in my thinking. I am studying Covenant Theology and am beginning to believe that the rapture, 7 year trib and many other Revelation interps are jsut plain wrong and do not take into account who the book of Rev. was specifically written to , who Matthew 23-25 was written to, etc. (I believe in Jude 3 of course)

I have not yet fully compiled a personal view, but in the past have lined up with Van Impe, LaHaye, etc. (not so much Hagee). Now I am almost ready to chuck all that and burn all my escatology books in effigy to John Nelson Darby.


But I am not there yet. Another year of study maybe.

I just may end up a partial-preterist. :laugh:

k

 

Pre-wrath, which is post-trib but acknowledges that the great tribulation will be cut short and therefore will end at an unpredictable time, which is why we don't know the day or hour of His return.

Tribulation and wrath are two different things. We are not appointed to wrath, so we are raptured before God pours out His wrath. That's why the great multitude appears in heaven (taken out of the great tribulation) just as Jesus returns and is about to pour His wrath upon the world.

If anyone insists we are supposed to be protected from great tribulation, then they'll have to ask God to go back and apologize to Peter, Paul, and countless other martyrs.

 

amillenial, 100%.

But, right or wrong, don't matter to me. What matters is I'm outta here with all the pre-tribs, the post-tribs, and "others". Everything else will be behind us, including theologies.

Like, is the antiChrist the pope ? or Ronald Reagan ? or Osama bin Laden ?
heck, he can be anybody he wants to be, don't matter to me. he ain't got nuthin' on me.

 

Let me suggest to all those "fence sitters"...

... that just as there was a "transition" to the new covenant (the time from the cross to the temple destruction) there will be a transition from rapture to MK. It will appear that the church is gaining sway but, in reality, the church will be developing into the one world religion while the Jews will be coming back to God. The period is called "the time of Jacob's trouble" and the 70th week of Daniel for a reason.

skypair

 

It is a curious thing that the pretrib rapture is preached primarily in the US and I couldn't agree with you more RD2. I like to base what I believe on; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

Your point is spot on. Folks had better be fortified with God's Word or they will be deceived. That falling away from the faith is not the unbelieving world it is of those that are unsaved in the Church. And by the context of 2 Thes 2:3 thats a whole heap of folks.

 

I beseach, plead, pray, and suggest: When you quote scripture
please tell me which Version and which Edition (if known).
We Bereans are going to check you out to see if you can cut
and paste good. Thank you.

I also base my pretribualtion rapture2 pre-millinnial Second Coming
of Jesus post-tribulation -- on 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
but on this version:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a departing first,
and that that man of sinne be disclosed,
euen the sonne of perdition,

Yep, when the Lord comes to get His own, we
(rather dead or alive) will be departing this
earth {AKA: Rapture2 = rapture1 + resurrection1
at the beginning of the Tribulation (on antichrist &
bad guys) Time Period}.

This scripture is also clearer reading than yours:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes,
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sinne bee reuealed,
the sonne of perdition,

(ain't it strange how some folk say that in 1820
a guy called John Nelson Darby /he didn't publish much
about this matter until 1848, but that doesn't stop
those who wish to discredit the pretribualtion rapture
doctrine / )

//It is a curious thing that the pretrib rapture
is preached primarily in the US ... //

1. Any data to suggest that statement to be true?

2. what is strange or curious about it?
I get hassled cause I'm a Baptist and studied the matter
on my own /I am retired now & have more time to study
and write stuff/.

Here is my writing about 2 Thess chapter 2:
-------------------------------------------


The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873 Edition):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul -- he didn't endure
to the end."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (LATIN: raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words[/u].
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

I've underlined a command to comfort each
other with these things. I personally don't see how
we can comfort each other with 'Jesus is going to
come get us at the end of the Tribulation period'.
So I use 'Jesus is going to come get us at the end of
the age which is before the Tribulation Period starts.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

I underlined "our gathering together to Him,
we ask you" in verse 1 and
the falling away comes first.
The second is the only mention of the first
in the rest of the chapter.

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Millinnial Kingdom period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.

 

Brother Ed,
May your rendering be correct. For I'll be right there with you and will say gladly that I am very wrong while I drop this flesh and take up the new body as we join our Savior in the sky.:thumbs:
However, this nation is in a rude awakening for its sins have reached into heaven as the ten's of millions of little ones that have had no voice have been slaughtered for the sake of women's rights. This nation and this church will answer for it.
1 Peter 4:12-19
12Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.
16Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

 

Parsons Quick Verse 7.0 software. King James Version. I'll stand on the verse as I have posted it. [A falling away.] I will not claim any other as a better translation. Nor will I repudiate another as an inferior one as I am very unqualified to do so. However, I still stand on what I know as true.

 

Brother Ed,
Would you be so kind as to post the first two verses of 2 Thes 2 out of the Geneva Bible?

Thanks

 

John 16:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
These things I haue spoken vnto you,
that in me ye might haue peace,
in the world ye shall haue tribulation:
but be of good cheare,
I haue ouercome the world.

Read the OSAS (Once Saved /by Jesus/,
Always Saved /by Jesus/) Underwriter's
Manifesto:

Rom 8:35-39 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Who shall separate vs from the loue of Christ?
shall tribulation or anguish, or persecution,
or famine, or nakednesse, or perill, or sworde?
36 As it is written,
For thy sake are we killed all day long:
we are counted as sheepe for the slaughter.
37 Neuerthelesse, in all these thinges
we are more then coquerours through him
that loued vs.
38 For I am perswaded that neither death,
nor life, nor Angels, nor principalities,
nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature
shalbe able to separate vs from the loue of God,
which is in Christ Iesus our Lord.

Here is what/where it is written:

Psalm 44:22 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Surely for thy sake are we slaine continually,
and are counted as sheepe for the slaughter.

Isn't that an interesting thing to quote right in
the middle of the most profound CLEAR statement
about OSAS ever made!

Read the second part of this scripture (the first part
is usually seperated from it). Job is speaking about
the Lord:

Job 13:15 (KJv1611 Edition):
Though hee slay mee, yet will I trust in him:
but I will maintaine mine owne wayes before him.

If you aren't ready for tribulation (the pain), you
aren't being realistic.

Here is how to be ready for the Tribulation (of the
Antichrist & his bad guys) PERIOD:

Joh 3:16-17 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his
only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth
in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Sonne into the world
to condemne the world: but that the world through
him might be saued.

But I don't believe that God's people have to go to
the ribulation (of the
Antichrist & his bad guys) PERIOD. If we do, then
we should be ready by faith that JESUS SAVES (period).

 

A couple of you have made a comment such as this. Let me urge you to remember that pretribulationism does not deny that believers are persecuted or that they go through tribulation. They always have.

But pretrib teaches that the Bible sets out a specific time called "The Tribulation." It is distinct from the tribulation that people have endured through church history. So while believers are persecuted and endure tribulation, the Tribulation is still to come. These things are distinct.

Even the phrase "Great Tribulation" is used to refer to the second half of the Tribulation when the judgments get worse.

Those who believe that the Tribulation has already happened have to explain how the judgments prophesied did not really come to pass. They also have to explain verses teaching that the church would be taken out of the Tribulation (cf. Rev 3:10; 1 Thess 5:1-11) . Personally, I have yet to see a convincing explanation of this, and therefore I am pretrib.

But at the very least, whether you agree with pretrib or not, realize that pretribulationism does not deny the existence of persecution in church history whether in the first century or now. It simply affirms that whatever tribulation people endure now, it is not The Tribulation prophesied of in Scripture.