The Relationship Between God's Grace & Lordship Legalism

[Lou Martuneac]

Following is another helpful analysis of the doctrinal errors in the Lordship Salvation position. This is written by Pastor George Zeller.

This brings us to a teaching of our day, common in Reformed circles, popularly known as LORDSHIP SALVATION.

Essentially Lordship salvation teaches that simple faith in Jesus Christ is not enough for salvation. Something else is needed. A solid commitment to Christ as Lord is needed. A person needs to surrender to the Lordship of Christ. A willingness to obey Christ’s commands is necessary. Also the sinner must fulfill the demands of discipleship or be willing to fulfill them. This includes loving Christ supremely, forsaking possessions, etc. (see Luke 14:25-33).

What do Lordship teachers do with Acts 16:30-31? [“And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”] This verse teaches that the sinner must do the believing and that God must do the saving. It teaches that faith and faith alone is necessary for salvation. It does not say, “Believe and surrender to Christ’s Lordship and fulfill the terms of discipleship and thou shalt be saved.” It simply says, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.” What does it mean to believe? The hymn-writer has explained it in very simple terms, “Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus, just to take Him at His Word, just to rest upon His promise, just to know THUS SAITH THE LORD!”

Those who teach Lordship salvation are forced to redefine saving faith. It means more than just simple, childlike faith in Jesus Christ. They might say something like this: “We believe in Acts 16:31 just as much as you do, but you need to understand what the word ‘believe’ really means. ‘Believe’ means more than just believe. Saving faith involves much more.” What does it mean to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Lordship salvation teachers would say that it involves the following: It means surrendering to His Lordship. It means turning from sin. It means submitting to His authority and to His Word. It means obeying His commands, or at least having a willingness to obey. It means fully accepting all the terms of discipleship.

Consider this last statement. Does saving faith really involve accepting all the terms of discipleship? Does saving faith really include such requirements as loving Christ supremely, forsaking all that one has, denying self, etc. (Luke 14:25-33, etc.)? A saved person should do all of these things, but he does not do these things in order to be saved. He is saved because he throws himself upon the mercy of a loving Saviour who died for him. One reason why he needs to be saved is because he does not love Christ supremely. He is guilty of breaking the greatest commandment! It is not our COMMITMENT that saves us, it is our CHRIST who saves us! It is not our SURRENDER that saves us, it is our SAVIOUR who does! It is not what I do for God; it’s what God has done for me.

Avoid the dangerous error of taking what should be the RESULT of salvation and making it the REQUIREMENT of salvation: It is because I am saved that I surrender to His Lordship (Rom. 12:1-2). It is because I am saved that I turn from sin and begin to learn what it means to live unto righteousness (1 Pet. 2:24). It is because I am saved that I follow Him in willing obedience (1 John 2:3-5). It is because I am saved that I agree to the terms of discipleship and begin to learn all that discipleship involves (Luke chapter 14).

It is because I am saved that I submit to His authority over every area of my life (Rom. 6:13). I do these things because I am saved by the grace of God, not in order to be saved. Do not turn the results into requirements! Don’t turn the grace of God into legalism [adding unbiblical requirements to the gospel message].

Don’t confuse saving faith with that which saving faith ought to produce. Don’t confuse repentance with the fruits of repentance. Behavior and fruit are the evidences of saving faith but they are not the essence of saving faith. Don’t confuse the fruit with the root. Before you can “come after” Christ in discipleship (Luke 9:23; Matt. 11:29-30), you must “come unto” Christ for salvation (Matthew 11:28). Discipleship is not a requirement for salvation; discipleship is the obligation of every saved person.

Salvation involves Christ loving me (Rom. 5:8; Gal. 2:20); discipleship involves me loving Christ (Matthew 10:37). Because we are justified freely by His grace we measure up to the full demands of God’s righteousness in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). Because we are frail we often fail to measure up to the full demands of discipleship (Luke 14:25-33). The requirements of discipleship are many; the requirement for salvation is simple faith and trust in the Saviour.

For additional articles documenting the doctrinal errors of Lordship Salvation visit the series, Saved by Grace Alone: A Biblical Analysis of Lordship Salvation.

LM

 

[donnA]

I'm not sure why letting Jesus be Lord of our lives is wrong. Paul didn't think so, he called Jesus Lord many times. if Jesus isn't Lord of our lives then who is?

 

[TCGreek]

Lordship is Legalism. Wow!

Don't we have to first establish this premise, unless that matter has been settled.

But I'm sure you'll find sympathetic posters.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

I'm not sure why letting Jesus be Lord of our lives is wrong. Paul didn't think so, he called Jesus Lord many times. if Jesus isn't Lord of our lives then who is?

Nothing wrong with that. The born again Christian should serve and respond to Jesus as Lord and Master.

The problem with LS is that it requires the lost man to make an upfront commitment to obedience in "exchange" FOR becoming a Christian.


LM

 

[canadyjd]

From jdlongmire: Post #60 of "Performance Guidlines..." thread: Let's let Dr. M speak for himself:

The following "Question" was asked by a member of the congregation at Grace Community Church in Panorama City, California, and "Answered" by their pastor, John MacArthur Jr. It was transcribed from the tape, GC 70-8, titled "Questions and Answers--Part 36." A copy of the tape can be obtained by writing, Word of Grace, P.O. Box 4000, Panorama City, CA 91412 or by dialing toll free 1-800-55-GRACE. Copyright 2001 by John MacArthur Jr., All Rights Reserved.

Question
I know that you take a Biblical view of salvation by faith alone.
John Macarthur: Yes, by grace through faith--not by faith alone. By grace through faith.

Question (continued)
Ok, but I’m a little confused as far as the implications of that Lordship to the non-Christian at the point of salvation. How much of it can they really comprehend in terms of the Lordship issue? And then along with that, are you saying through your series on the Lordship that the call to salvation is synonymous with the call to discipleship?

Answer
I am saying that explicitly, that a call to salvation is indeed a call to discipleship. I am saying that it is obvious that a person coming to faith in Jesus Christ will not fully understand the implications of his Lordship. They will not fully understand the reality of their sin, but there must be a call to that. In other words, when you call a sinner to repentance and you call a sinner to submit to Christ, they don’t fully understand the implications of that. But, they will understand as much as they can understand.

Now, let me say something that is very, very important for you to understand. I do not believe that an incomplete presentation of the gospel--in other words, if you just present the gospel that Jesus died for your sin and rose again and graciously offers you forgiveness by faith in his name; if that’s all you presented, and you didn’t talk about Lordship, and you didn’t talk about being a disciple, and you didn’t talk about repentance, and you didn’t talk about turning from sin-even an incomplete presentation of the gospel-now listen-could not prevent someone from being saved whom God was saving. Got that? Because if you didn’t talk about sin, they’d be feeling the conviction. And if you didn’t talk about submission, they’d be coming to that submission.

What I am saying is that when we present a shallow gospel, we don’t prevent the elect from getting saved; we make people think they’re saved who aren’t. That’s the issue. Do you see the distinction? That’s the issue. And so what we have-just imagine this now!-what we have then are a lot of people who think they’re Christians. And we have a lot of churches that are run by congregational rule, which means that a lot of churches are being run by what? Non-Christians! That’s a frightening reality. I’m quite sure there are Christian organizations being operated by non-Christians.

So, I don’t want to say that… You know, somebody said to me, “Well, I didn’t know all about Lordship when I was saved. Am I not saved?” No. The issue is, “Do you understand that Jesus is Lord and is it your heart’s desire to love Him and serve Him?” And if the answer is yes, then you understand it. So, that’s the point you have to understand.

Now, Jesus called men to follow Him in discipleship. He called them to obey Him. We’ve shown all of that and we’ll even go into more detail when the book comes out.

I believe that when you present the gospel-now listen carefully to this-you can make it as difficult as possible! That’s what Jesus did. He made it as difficult as possible. Why? Because salvation is a work of God, not based on the cleverness of the one giving the gospel, but based on the power of God. So, if a person is being saved by God, then you want them to fully understand their salvation. And if God isn’t doing it, you want to make sure that they’re not coming in on some illusion. (emphasis canadyjd)

Compare what John MacArthur actually believes and teaches from the post above to what George Zeller claims Lordship advocates believe and teach:

Those who teach Lordship salvation are forced to redefine saving faith. It means more than just simple, childlike faith in Jesus Christ. They might say something like this: “We believe in Acts 16:31 just as much as you do, but you need to understand what the word ‘believe’ really means. ‘Believe’ means more than just believe. Saving faith involves much more.” What does it mean to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Lordship salvation teachers would say that it involves the following: It means surrendering to His Lordship. It means turning from sin. It means submitting to His authority and to His Word. It means obeying His commands, or at least having a willingness to obey. It means fully accepting all the terms of discipleship.

Consider this last statement. Does saving faith really involve accepting all the terms of discipleship? Does saving faith really include such requirements as loving Christ supremely, forsaking all that one has, denying self, etc.

MacArthur has been called one of the leading proponents of Lordship Salvation. He clearly does not believe you must "accept all the terms of discipleship" before you can be saved. You don't even have to hear the word discipleship to be saved.
MacArthur believes salvation is entirely a work of God's Grace.

What is clear is that those who oppose him cannot accurately and honestly state what he believes and teaches.

peace to youraying:

 

[annsni]

Wow - it certainly seems Mr. Martuneac has an agenda here and just doesn't listen to the facts - just what others have said. I wonder if, as a believer, Mr. Martuneac contacted John MacArthur to discuss this with him directly instead of just slandering and misrepresenting what he says. As we can see from the above quote, JM does not believe or teach what Mr. Martuneac and those he quotes believe what he says he believes.

Part of faith in Christ involves taking up His cross. There are way too many walking around in life saying "Well, I prayed the prayer of salvation so I'm saved. It's OK that I do things wrong - Jesus will forgive me. He won't let me go to hell." when what's truly happened is nothing. They have not submitted to Christ - have not truly put their faith in Him. They are walking around thinking they're nice and healthy when in reality they are walking corpses - just waiting for the moment of death and judgment. They will be the ones saying "Lord, Lord!" and He will turn them away.

A life reigned by Christ will produce fruit. A life that does not produce fruit is not a life that is alive. However, an unregenerated person does not need to try to make fruit in order to be saved. That would be like hanging apples on a dead tree. It just doesn't work. But to let that person know that a life reigned by Christ will produce fruit is the proper thing to do. That from the life that Christ gives them, there will be fruit - and that Christ will be Lord of their lives.

 

[donnA]

Nothing wrong with that. The born again Christian should serve and respond to Jesus as Lord and Master.

The problem with LS is that it requires the lost man to make an upfront commitment to obedience in "exchange" FOR becoming a Christian.


LM

I think this is incorrect. It's a commitment, not buying salvation. This seems easy to understand, if a person so chooses too.

 

[Jarthur001]

Wow - it certainly seems Mr. Martuneac has an agenda here and just doesn't listen to the facts - just what others have said. I wonder if, as a believer, Mr. Martuneac contacted John MacArthur to discuss this with him directly instead of just slandering and misrepresenting what he says. As we can see from the above quote, JM does not believe or teach what Mr. Martuneac and those he quotes believe what he says he believes.

Part of faith in Christ involves taking up His cross. There are way too many walking around in life saying "Well, I prayed the prayer of salvation so I'm saved. It's OK that I do things wrong - Jesus will forgive me. He won't let me go to hell." when what's truly happened is nothing. They have not submitted to Christ - have not truly put their faith in Him. They are walking around thinking they're nice and healthy when in reality they are walking corpses - just waiting for the moment of death and judgment. They will be the ones saying "Lord, Lord!" and He will turn them away.

A life reigned by Christ will produce fruit. A life that does not produce fruit is not a life that is alive. However, an unregenerated person does not need to try to make fruit in order to be saved. That would be like hanging apples on a dead tree. It just doesn't work. But to let that person know that a life reigned by Christ will produce fruit is the proper thing to do. That from the life that Christ gives them, there will be fruit - and that Christ will be Lord of their lives.

Truth does not matter to some. But books sales matter.

 

[donnA]

Some people choose to misunderstand. It's much like the Armenian and Calvinist debate, many choose to misunderstand and misrepresent.

 

[Havensdad]

I think this is incorrect. It's a commitment, not buying salvation. This seems easy to understand, if a person so chooses too.

(Emphasis mine).

Donna this is VERY true! But then, this type of understanding doesn't sell books, now, does it?

 

[EdSutton]

I have a telling question for all on these "Lordship Salvation" threads, I believe.

There are, to my knowledge, two individuals in Scripture who are spoken of as righteous/just (or their deeds are) three times each, aside from the Lord Jesus Christ. And one of these two is the only individual specifically identified in Scripture as being among the 'godly'. I consider these two to be the Biblical "Saints of saints", based on what Scripture's own words in what it says.

Without anyone looking it up, can you tell me who these two individuals are with a "Yes, I know". type of answer, if you do in fact know?? (Don't want to give it away, for the rest of the BB, just yet, you see.)

If you perchance do not know this for certain, would you like to hazard an open guess?

Incidentally, this is not just for fun, but does have bearing on the threads, here.

Oh yeah, happy guessing! :thumbs:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

I think this is incorrect. It's a commitment, not buying salvation. This seems easy to understand, if a person so chooses too.

Out of curiosity, since you brought up the word, where does the Bible ever say that salvation/eternal life is or requires a commitment, or use commit to refer to receiving this? I know of more than one place where it says this is a gift of God and based on 'believing/faith", though. I also know of more than one place where a saved individual spoke of 'commiting' something, but not in the context of receiving salvation, as well.

Please enlighten me.

Ed

 

[Havensdad]

Yes, I know. Actually, though, there are three.

Yes, I have heard the argument you are going to present before.

No, it is not based on actual Lordship salvation, but a complete misunderstanding of it.

No, the fact that they did sinful things, does not in any way contradict L.S., because L.S. actually teaches that a man can fall into sin, according to Macarthur, "for years".

I apologize if this is not where you are going. But I have heard this (the one I just quickly outlined) argument hundreds of times, and it shows, much like Donna suggested, that the people on the other side are simply inventing reasons to argue.

 

[Havensdad]

Out of curiosity, since you brought up the word, where does the Bible ever say that salvation/eternal life is or requires a commitment, or use commit to refer to receiving this? I know of more than one place where it says this is a gift of God and based on 'believing/faith", though. I also know of more than one place where a saved individual spoke of 'commiting' something, but not in the context of receiving salvation, as well.

Please enlighten me.

Ed

"Pistis" (in its many forms) is not a mental belief. It is a heartfelt abiding trust. As in "trust in the Lord Jesus Christ" to be saved (not merely give a mental assent to His existence).

If I have a disease, and the cure costs a million dollars, but someone gives me a pill saying it will cure me, if I TRUST them, what do I do? (take the pill)

Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc., were Jews. We MUST understand believing/trusting the way THEY did. So here is a question. According to the Jewish mind, when was someone "believing" or ""trusting" of people? Simple: if someone told you something, and you acted in accordance with what they told you, you "believed". If you DID NOT, you DIDN"T believe.

In fact, the Hebrew language did not even have a word for "faith". The Hebrew word sometimes rendered "faith" in our bibles, ACTUALLY means "faithful" or "Faithfulness" (i.e. fidelity).

For example, look at this verse:

Hab 2:4 "Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith.

When we think of this verse, we think of "belief". But this word "faith" actually means "trusworthiness or fidelity".

We live in an abstract society, where someone can say "I believe in ______" and not have to back it up. But this was NOT true, in the society that Jesus and the Apostles grew up in. If someone did not act according to what they professed, they DID NOT believe it.

 

[donnA]

Out of curiosity, since you brought up the word, where does the Bible ever say that salvation/eternal life is or requires a commitment, or use commit to refer to receiving this? I know of more than one place where it says this is a gift of God and based on 'believing/faith", though. I also know of more than one place where a saved individual spoke of 'commiting' something, but not in the context of receiving salvation, as well.

Please enlighten me.

Ed

If you don't believe salvation means we now live committed to Christ, allowing Him to be our Lord, thats your problem. Seems Paul was extremely committed, along with others who were killed for their committment to Jesus.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

If you don't believe salvation means we now live committed to Christ, allowing Him to be our Lord, thats your problem. Seems Paul was extremely committed, along with others who were killed for their committment to Jesus.

The LS debate is NOT primarily (for me) over what should be the natural result of salvation, i.e. discipleship, which should include a "commitment to Christ."

The problem is that LS calls on lost men to resolve to a commitment to "forsake sin" and perform the "good works" expected of a born again Christian. That is where the controversy is because that is salvation conditioned on a promise of works.

LS is a promise for a promise message. A promsie from the lost for certain expecetd levels of behavior in exchange for the promsie of eternal life.


LM