The Rod: Will God Spared It? Refuted

A friend of mine leant me this book a while ago, it was not very sound at all.

 

Hi DPT, I am going to try to break your posts down to specific arguments and answer them if I can.

I should like to point out that Joey did not come to this conclusion from reading other men's writings. I was going to his church when he began teaching this doctrine, and he taught it solely from scripture. At the time, I don't think we knew of anyone else who believed this teaching (ie that a Christian is in danger of missing the millennial kingdom.) Subsequently through his studies he did find that there were many people who taught such a thing throughout history. In his book, he devotes fully three chapters to documenting others who have taught accountability to some degree or another. The purpose of this is not to show that the teaching is right because others believe it, but to counter the argument that often comes forth, which is 'I've never heard of this, no one ever taught this before.' But we see that you can't win, if we show that others have taught this, now we are following the teachings of men. John came not eating or drinking and they said he had a devil.

I think it is funny that of all things, you disagree with what we teach not because believers are not warned in scripture, but that you think we do not take the warnings seriously enough??

I agree that there is a very large problem in the churches, and that holiness has been put somewhere down at the bottom of the priority list while American Idol has been in the top ten 4 years running. The main thing we seem to disagree on is the meaning of 'kingdom of God'. You believe that a person who is not living up to the standards presented in the bible will lose their eternal salvation and go to the lake of fire for all eternity. I believe a person who is not obedient to the Lord will be chastised by missing the kingdom, and going to hell, but in the end, "he shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

 

How many times does the bible have to say something for it to be true? I believe the bible is one book with one author, who through the inspiration of several men wrote what is arguably the greatest work in the universe. There are no contradictions in the bible. If the Lord tells you that there is a kingdom coming, and then in another place tells you that kingdom lasts a thousand years, what diference does it make if He tells you this through Peter, Paul, John or James?

Now you are the one adding to scripture. Where do we find the prize/gift anywhere in the bible? Paul is not saying the prize is the gift.

The kingdom of God is a subject that was very dear to the Lord. Your idea that the kingdom of God is some fuzzy, indistinct concept (looking up to God?) is not consistent with the scriptures. The kingdom is a literal kingdom on this earth with literal thrones where literal people will sit and reign over the nations.

Acts 1:3-7
3 To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Jesus spent 40 days talking to the disciples about his kingdom, and after all this they still expected a literal kingdom to be restored. You would think if anyone knew about the kingdom, it would be them. If they were wrong, in thinking that there would be a literal kingdom, surely Jesus would have taken this opportunity to correct this idea before he left them, but He doesn't. Instead He tells them that it is not for them to know when the kingdom will arrive.

 

Premils believe in a second coming of Jesus prior to the establishing of His earthly millennial kingdom. Views on the rapture are not consistent from one premil to the next. I believe that many believers will not be raptured prior to the tribulation. Regardless of the exact timing of the judgment seat of Christ, it is readily apparent to anyone who knows how to read that there is a span of 1000 years between the first resurrection and the great white throne.

Matthew 25:31-46 is only dealing with believers.

 

One Filipino pastor, very Arminian and very Dispensationalist, that I know of, offers the following verses as proof text for that strange doctrine (probably got it from Clarence Larkin):

What do you all think ?

 

I think outer darkness is hell. The unprofitable servant is a believer who is given the same grace and opportunity as the others to produce fruit in his life, but instead he chooses to live for himself.

 

James_Newman: // ... it is readily apparent to anyone
who knows how to read that there is a span of 1000 years
between the first resurrection and the great white throne.//

HOwever, if one chooses to ignore the Millinnial
Messanic Kingdom: the physical Millinnial
Reign of Christ on the Physical Throne of David in
a physical Jerusalem on a physical earth -
then one has to make the following
wrong conclusion:

DeafPosttrib: // Now, I realized, the Bible teaches us there is only
ONE general judgment day follow at Christ's coming at the end of the world.//

THe Bible is very clear that ALL people will be judged.
But the Bible gives several different judgements at
different times. Jamming Christ's Second Coming Event
right before the "end of the world" - that destroyes the
message of the judgements.

BTW, the KJV which has 'end of the world' in Matthew 24:3
should say 'end of the age' (Greek: aeon) not 'end
of the world (Greek: cosmos). The end of this age
is the beginning of the Messanic Kingdom Age.

The Christian accepting Christ will NOT be judged for their
sins - Christ died for there sins and took those sins away.
The Bema Seat (called 'judgement seat' of Christ) will
be an awards ceremony for Christians. Some will be rewared
to serve in the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom - thier reward
cames over 1,000 years BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgement.


Saying is by DeafPosttrib, bolding is by Ed:
//Clear, Matthew 25:31-46 teaches us there is
the only one judgement day follow at Christ's
coming to gathering all nations, but apart them
into two classes- sheep & goats. Matt. 25:46 tells us,
all goats shall be cast into everlasting fire,
but all sheep into EVERLASTING LIFE. That's simple and plain.//

Yes, it is simple and plain - wrong, mind you, but simple and plain.
The error likely is in the 'them' i've bolded above.
Who is 'them'? They are THE NATIONS - they are divided into
goat nations and sheep nations. This judgement can happen
only at the end of this present age and prior to the
Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.

Clear, Matthew 25:31-46 teaches us there is
a judgement of the nations follow at Christ's
coming. They (the nations) shall be gathered
into two classes- sheep & goats. Matt. 25:46 tells us,
all goat nations shall be cast into everlasting fire,
but all sheep nations into ETERNAL LIFE. That's simple and plain.

 

But Revelation chapter 20 tells us that after a thousand years, everyone comes out of hell. Even Satan himself will not stay in hell for all eternity, he is loosed from his prison and allowed for a season to go forth to deceive the nations. Why am I not allowed to believe this book?

 

DeafPosttrib:
//Isn't United of States of America- nation?

//Aren't we the part of a nation - America???

//Matt. 25:31-33 telling us, when Christ shall come with
his angels, they all gathering all nations
of the world - over 6 billion of world populations
both faithful servants and unfaithful servants/wicked,
to apart them into two classes, send
unfaithful servants and wicked into everlasting fire.
Send faithful servant servants into eternal life - Matt. 25:46.//

If it is so simple, why the questions?
The answer is that Matthew 24:31-44 is about one thing
and the sheep nations/goat nations judgement
(Matt 25:31-46) are a different thing.

In a following post is a simple, Biblical, yet complete description
of Five different
Judgements. Nowhere does it say there is timewise
or purposewise ONE AND ONLY ONE JUDGEMENT. The ONEness is in that
ALL PEOPLE SHALL BE JUDGED. There is not oneness in
how they will be judged or when they shall be judged.

BTW, we American Christians will not be judged in the
Sheep nations & Goat nations Judgement -- we will be
gone to Heaven for our own rewards judgement
seven years prior to the Second COming of our Lord
in power & Glory accompanied by HIS OVERCOMING,
DONE JUDGED SAINTS.
(our sins do NOT accompany us to heaven where we are
beaten to a bloody pulp to cleanse us from our sins).
The only blood in heaven will the precious blood of
Jesus poured out for our sins. Our sins are long gone
by the time Jesus takes us to heaven.

There is no punishement of us for our sins in
our new/glorified/heavenly bodies. There are
no pillories (wipping posts) in Heaven.

Ed, //The end of this age is the BEGINNING of Messanic Kingdom Age//

DeafPosttrib: //Where did you get the idea come from??//

While I look up the verse, you may assume, as I do, that
this is a correct statement:

//The end of this age is the BEGINNING of Messanic Kingdom Age//

You will find nothing in the Bible that renders this statement
untrue. If you can find one saying of the Bible that
refutes this statement, then it is an incorrect assumption.

By contrast, your assumption:
//When Jesus comes the second time, the world will end
within 45 each 24-hour-days//

I prove this wrong all the time, in nearly every post.
This statement calls Revelation 20 a lie. But this
assumption is false, and Rvelation 20 is true. It is over
1,000 physical years between the Second Coming of Jesus
and the destruction of the Earth by Fire.

DeafPosttrib: //Matthew 7:13-14 is not talking about millennial kingdom,
because this passage doesn't say, 'a thousand years'.//

Your statement is true, your reason is not the right reason.

Many of your statements are like this.
Yes, Joey Faust is full of himself and full of the words
of men, not God. But that doesn't automaticly make him wrong.
He is wrong on many things, but not for your listed reasons.

John 3:16 doesn't mention the Physical Millinnial Messanic Kingdom,
water baptism, or the Holy Trinity. But John 3:16 is still
true, there is still a Holy Trinity, water baptism is required
for those who would follow Christ, and there will still
be a Physical Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.

BTW, the Triune God has three kingdoms.
Don't confuse the three.

1. Jesus said to sinners: "the kingdom is among you".
For where Lord Jesus is, the Kingdom of God is there also..

2. Jesus said to the saved: "the kingdom is within you"
This is the eternal kingdom, for the saved in Christ shall
never die

3. The prophets of the Old Testament (OT) and the
prophets of the New Testament (NT) predicted a
Physical Millilnnial Messanic Kingdom: a physical Christ ruling on
a physical earth on a physical throne of David in a Physical
Jerusalem with a working/physical Temple.

Strawman: "but Ed, where does it say in the Bible
that there are 'three Kingdom's of God'". Those exact words
are never said in the Bible. What those words mean is true
(Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21)


Ed:
//The kingdom is a literal kingdom on this earth
with literal thrones where literal people will
sit and reign over the nations//

DeafPosttrib: //Christ tells us, "The kingdom of God cometh NOT WITH observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there!
for, behold the kingdom of God IS WITHIN YOU." - Luke 17:20-21.//

Yes, this is KINGDOM #2of3 described above; it is not
KINGDOM #1of3 described above
nor is it KINGDOM #3of3 described above.
So basicly you agree with me and with the Bible:
God has Three KINGDOMS. Pretty neat for a Triune God to
have three KINGDOMS, eh? Isn't our Lord KING OF KINGS
and LORD OF LORDS? Then it only seems likely He will have
more than one and only one kingdom.


James_Newman: //The kingdom of God is a subject
that was very dear to the Lord.
Your idea that the kingdom of God is some fuzzy,
indistinct concept (looking up to God?)
is not consistent with the scriptures. The kingdom
is a literal kingdom on this earth with
literal thrones where literal people will sit
and reign over the nations.//

Amen, Brother James_Newman -- you are so RIGHT ON!
You describe KINGDOM #3of3 described above; it is not
KINGDOM #1of3 described above
nor is it KINGDOM #2of3 described above.

DeafPosttrib: //Also, Matt. 25:31-46 say nothing about 'a thousand years'.//

Your montra is getting boring. 'A thousand years' is only
said in Revelation 20. Note my 'new name' that mentions many of
the terms used to describe the event:

Millinnial Messanic Earthly Kingdom of Christ.

Genesis 1:1 about the creation does NOT mention the
Millinnial Messanic Earthly Kingdom of Christ. This does not
mean that God didn't create anything; this doesn't mean there
will be no Physical Millinnial Messanic Earthly Kingdom of Christ.
The non mention of something in a particular verse only means
you can't say everything in every verse or every chapter
or even every Bood of the Bible.

Sadly, the 1,000 year long Millinnial Messanic Earthly Kingdom of Christ
is NOT mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10.
Some folks seem content to scrap Revelation chapter 20
to ease their confusion about 2 Peter 3:10.

The United States, lead by George Washington, helped
rid the world of Adolf Hitler.

This statement is rather broad, George only lead the US at
the beinning. This statement doesn't mention a great
Civil War. As far as it goes, this statement is correct - this
statement just doesn't go very far.

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV1769 Edition):
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief
in the night; in the which the heavens
shall pass away with a great noise, and the
elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein
shall be burned up.

It seems a shame to deny the meaning of Revelation 20
because of this verse which sumarizes thousands of
years of the history of the world. While this statement
doesn't mention events happening between the start
of 'the day of the Lord' and the final destruction of
the universe - neither does it deny what Revelation 20 says.

So much is missed by making all people everywhere, everywhen
go on one and only one judgement when the picture God presents
in the bible is so clear: all will be judged, though some
will be judged some now and some then, some here and some there
-- but ALL WILL BE JUDGED.



DeafPosttrib: //Matt. 25:31-46 teaching us, WHEN Christ shall come
again with his angels, immediately he shall send his
angels to gathering all nations, and to apart them
into two classes, send them into eternality
destiny - everlasting punishment or everlasting life.//


I think you are getting Matt 25:31-46 and Matt 14:31
mixed up??? They are NOT the same event: not the same people,
not the same happendings, not the same time - just not the
same.


DeafPosttrib: //There is the only one judgment day,
not two or three judgment days according dispensationalism doctrine.//

Not scriptural at all. I argue for multiple judgement days
above and in posts beyond this.

 

2Pe 3:8-10 (KJV1611 Edition):
But (beloued) bee not ignorant of this one thing,
that one day is with the Lord as a thousand yeeres,
and a thousand yeeres as one day.
9 The Lord is not slacke cocerning his promise
(as some men count slacknesse) but is long-suffring
to vs-ward, not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord wil come as a thiefe in the night,
in the which the heauens shall passe away
with a great noise, and the Elements shall melt
with feruent heate, the earth also and the works
that are therin shalbe burnt vp.

You cannot believe Regelation 10 about the 1,000 years
because some people don't understand the retorical device:
the Summary. 2 Peter 3:8 is a summary from the
day of the Return of Jesus through the destruction of
the earth. 2 Peter 3:8 sumarizes Revelation 19 (the end)
through Revelation 21. THE BIG CLUE THAT THE misunderstanders
misunderstand is 2 Peter 3:8 which even mentions
THE MILLINNIUM (1,000 years in Latin).

So Brother James_Newman, you don't get to believe in Revelation 20
cause some people don't understand the literary devise used
in 2 Peter 3:8 - the summary. Instead of lettering scripture illuminate
scripture - some let their misunderstanding of one scripture hid another
scripture completely

 

Here is what the Bible says about 'Dispensation'.
Taken from the NT, KJV1769 version:

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

 

Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

DeafPosttrib: //I rather follow what the Bible than
what men saying according Colossians 2:8.//

That is what you say. Here is what you mean:

I am so sure what I beleive is right that i think it comes
straight from God. Because you don't believe the same
way I do, you are of the anti-God.

BTW, you attack my main idea: multiple general judgements
of humans by God. You have not even attempeted to defend
against the thousands of details that i've provided to
show the general concept. You loose the debate do to
your inattention to detail.

My FIVE JUDGEMENTS writing is a clearly evangelistic
message, your attack against (top level only) is a spoon
digging out an ocean of detail. You loose the debate do to
your inattention to detail.

But hey, I like you anyway. Here is my dispensational theory
and doctrine:

---------------------------------
Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 version:

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
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