the Second Death

If you're born once you die twice.
If you're born twice you die once.

 

Why is it I agree with Wopik so much?? It is like he/she is reading my Bible and the notes I write in the margins!

What is up here?

In Christ,

Bob

 

I am sure that 99 44/100 of people posting on this board know that the 'second death' can only be experienced by the unsaved, those who were never 'born again' by the Spirit of God.

My mind always goes back to Revelation 20:14. The Great White Throne Judgment will come at the end of human history and only sinners will appear at this judgment as described in 20:11-15 & in 21:8.

There is no probabationary period once a person enters Hell; Hell is forever!

 

Was the thief on the cross included in this "sleep"? Jesus said he would be with Him that day in paradise. Does Jesus still "sleep", then?

The use of "sleep" is a metaphor for what our physical bodies are actually doing...because some day they will be wakened, and reunited with our soul in uncorruptible fashion.

 

The body does not "Sleep" in death. The body is "Destroyed" -- it "returns to dust". The body that you sow is NOT the one that is raised according to 1Cor 15 and 2Cor 5. RAther you put OFF this old earthly decaying body and put ON the new ETERNAL body in eternal life.

It is the Saints that are called the "dead in Christ" in 1Thess 4 and it is the saints that "sleep" according to 1Thess 4.

In John 11 Christ said "LAZARUS sleeps" not "Lazarus' body sleeps". Christ said "I go that I may wake HIM". He never draws a disctinction to "JUST THE BODY" vs the PERSON.

In Christ,

Bob

 

So what about Christ? Did He go to the Father at death??

What about the thief - WHAT is the "context" for the TIMING of the promise to "BE WITH" Christ in the future?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan,

I agree with you.

Those who die now--their spirit and soul returns to the Lord and they are give a spiritual body immediately [II Corintians 5:1] until the Rapture of the church when 'those who are dead in Christ'[I Thessalonians 4:16](not sinners) the dust of their bodies will arise and be united in Heaven for whatever purpose He intends for His holy people. God speaking through Paul clearly says that God wants our bodies and Paul refers to '. . . the redemption of our body.' [Romans 8:23].

 

In 1 Cor 15 Paul deals explicitly with the resurrection of the body that takes place at the 2nd coming. Here he does not argue that the exact dust - tracking down all the atoms of the original body - is of any concern at all to God.

Here it is abundantly clear that "The dead" refers to the "person" and "The body they have" is an attribute of the dead person that is raised. It is the PERSON that has the body it is not the body that has a body.

So the question is when the people "the DEAD" are raise "With what kind of body do they come forth"?

God does not give us TWO bodies - one eternal in the heavens at death - and another body at the resurrection of the saints. There is no "body-sharing" in heaven or in the age to come.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan,

Do you believe when a Christian dies he or she does not enter Heaven until the Lord comes for His church?

Do you believe in 'soul sleep?'

"Ray"

 

Yes, I find it in 1Thess 4 and in 1 Cor 15 where the term is applied to the person - the saints themselves - not to something they have.

"If your arm dies" you do not die you are awake. IF your car battery dies - you remain alive. It is not correct to say "you died".

If your foot goes to sleep - you "the person" remain awake.

But if YOU die or YOU go to sleep - then it is "YOU" the person -- not just something your person "has".

"our bodies" Will be changed (1Cor 15) -- the our earthly tent will be torn down (2Cor 5) these are all things "WE" (the saints) have. So it is easy to see this as an attribute that we have and not "us" the person being torn down.

But in 1Cor 15 it is "WE that sleep" (but not all sleep) and "WE" shall all be changed. This is a reference to the soul - the person - not something "we have".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan,

So when a Christian dies you do not believe they are in the Presence of the Lord soon after physical death. Right?

"Ray"

 

I'm not going to die even one death. I hope.

 

Bob Ryan,

Philippians 1:23 and II Corinthians 5:8 indicates that when Christians die they soon after arrive in Heaven to be with the Lord and do not have to wait until Jesus returns for dead saints and living Christians at the Rapture. Do you agree?

This is why we are given a spiritual body at death that is fitted for Heaven [II Corinthians 5:1].

If Christians who die now have to wait until the Rapture to be gather up for Heaven, then the eternal life that we received when we were saved [John 3:16] would be an interrupted spiritual life and no longer eternal life [I John 5:11 & 13]. Do you agree?

Brother Ray

 

No. We are told that we "receive" eternal life "in the next life" in the "age to come" and we are also told that by faith we have it now.

In the same way Eph 2 tells us that now we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places - yet John 14 and 1Thess 4 shows that we are not "With Him where He is" until the 2nd coming.

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In 2Cor 5 we are told that we are given an eternal body made in heaven at some point after death.

In 1Cor 15 we are told that we are given a heavenly body at the resurrection.

Unless you believe in "body sharing" -- then both 2Cor 5 and 1Cor 15 are talking about the same event.

In 2Cor 5 we "start" with this earhly tent in decay. At death we are "unclothed" at the 2nd coming when (death is swallowed up by life) then (as 1Cor 15 says) we put on the heavenly body.

So it is one spirit and one body - not two eternal bodies.

This also explains why in 1Thess 4 Paul says that the saints must focus on the resurrection of the rapture event at the "coming of the Lord" for our being "with the Lord".

Just as John points out in John 14:1-3 "That you may be WITH ME Where I am".

2nd coming is it.

2 Peter 1 says "Fix your hope COMPLETELY on the hope to be realized Christ is revealed" from heaven. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ"

 

Bob Ryan,

Paul's epistles declare that soon after our death we go to be with the Lord. We are not just floating spirits up there until the Rapture.

In what kind of form do you think we take on right after death?

 

Solomon says that at death the spirit of all men returns " to God that gave it".

Christ says in John 11 that in death "the person" is asleep though the body is dead.

In 1Thess 4 - Paul tells us that the saints are asleep during death.

1 Cor 15 Paul says that all who die sleep as in "WE sleep" the person is dead - asleep.

But in that sleep "the living know they will die but the dead know not anything" in fact the Bible says "in that very moment the thoughts cease".

That means from the standpoint of the "person" they are instantly at the 2nd coming at the point of death - because "in death" they mark no time.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan,

Most often I agree with you, but II Cor. 5:8 and Philippians 1:23 indicate that Christian immediately go into the Presence of the Lord. If this were not true Heaven would only have O.T. saints and angels there. Heaven is not empty.

II Cor. 5:1 indicates that we have some kind of spiritual being there so we can enjoy the Presence of Jesus--perhaps like the Lord had after His resurrection from the dead. On the evening of the resurrection He passed through the wall and stood in the gathering of the disciples.

If you are Seventh-Day Adventist this is where you have stepped out of Christian orthodoxy. I'll have to check again what they believe.

Also, when we are saved and believe in Jesus He gives sinners everlasting life at the point of their conversion to Jesus. Eternal life starts then; it is not a reward given at the judgment, because of good behavior, though we are to obey the Lord and love Him forever.