The Semi-Pelagian Narrower Catechism

CALVINIST JUDGMENT DAY

SCENE: Judgment Day at the Throne of God. The souls of history are lined up to stand before God and give an account of their life.

GOD: Step forward, stand before Me the Most Holy God, state your name and give your account.

Man: My name is Duncan Angus Campbell and I was born in the highlands of Scotland in 1947 and emigrated with my loving parents to the great land of America when I was just a wee lad. And I bow my knee before you Sovereign Lord Almighty.

GOD: Stand up and give your account.

Duncan: I was a faithful husband of one, loving father of three.

GOD: Mmmmm hmmm.....

Duncan: And oh yes, I was faithful to You and your Son.

GOD: Well, I will be the judge of that Duncan. What about your sin?

Duncan: Ah, er... eh, yes, I did use your name in vain a few times and told some lies. But, I repented of my sins and turned from my ways.

GOD: And?

Duncan: Well, I er, umm.... yes, I did cheat on my Income Tax several times during the 80's. But I repented of my sins and turned from my ways.

GOD: Well done good and faithful servant! Go away to your eternal inheritance and the joy of heaven.

GOD: Next! Step forward, stand before Me the Most Holy God, state your name and give your account.

Man: My name is John Paul Van Dyke. I was born of Dutch ancestry in Lower Manhatten in the great land of the United States of America in 1948 and I bow my knee before you Most Merciful and Gracious God.

GOD: Give your account.

John: I was a faithful husband of one and loving father of three.

GOD: Mmmmm hmmmmm.

John: Yes, and I was faithful to you and your Son.

GOD: I will be the judge of that John. And your sin?

John: Oh yes. Ummm well, let's see. I told some lies and used your name in vain several times. But I repented and turned from my ways.

GOD: And?

John: Well, I accepted bribes as a civil servant back in the 80's. But I repented and turned from my ways.

GOD: Go away from Me you evildoer! Be cast into the eternal torment of the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

John: Whoaa. What? Wait a minute here. Was it the bribes?

GOD: No.

John: Using your name in vain? Was it the swearing which is sending me to eternal perdition?

GOD: No, no.

John: Just wait a minute here. Why is Duncan going to heaven and I am going to hell? I must tell you that I am quite bewildered over this unfortunate turn of events.

GOD: Duncan repented of his sins.

John: Yeah... but so did I.

GOD: Because Duncan was 'elect' and you are not.

John: Please wait Most Holy God. Can you give me a morsel of your eternity?

GOD: Very well. Just be reminded this is the Day of the Lord and a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day.

John: What should I have done in my life to be saved?

GOD: There is nothing you could have done. You were not elected to be saved.

John: Then what is the purpose of giving an account of our life?

GOD: It's a rewards quantity / torment quality issue.

John: So.... Duncan suffers for his evil deeds in heaven but I suffer for mine in hell?

GOD: No, no, John.

John: Frankly, Most Holy and Gracious God, I am rather confused on the matter.

GOD: Very well John. Duncan went away to eternal glory and lost out on some rewards he might have had.

John: And me?

GOD: You, on the other hand (my left one), go away to eternal torment and are tormented according to the sins you committed. Don't worry too much. It looks like a rather low burning flame for you.

John: But why am I going to hell and Duncan is going to heaven?

GOD: As I said before. Duncan was elect. You weren't.

John: Why?

GOD: For the purpose of my good pleasure and will!

John: But what could I have done? How could I have been elected?

GOD: John, as I, Most Holy and Mighty God hath sayeth before, there is absolutely nothing thou couldst have done to be elected. Indeed, there is nothing Duncan could have done to avoid election and entering into eternal glory.

John: I just don't get it. Please explain Most Holy God.

GOD: John, before the creation of the world, I elected Duncan and several others to be saved and I predestined them to that end for my good pleasure. There is nothing they could have done about it.

John: And?

GOD: That's it John. You were not elected, therefore, you are reprobate and there is nothing you could have done about it. So don't be too hard on yourself.

John: Most Holy, Gracious, Merciful and Righteous God, allow me try to understand what is going on here. Before you created the world, did you elect Duncan for salvation and ignored me for salvation which would mean I would have to go to the damnation of hell by default? OR did you intentionally elect Duncan for salvation and intentionally elect me for damnation?

GOD: Well John, I myself personally don't see the difference between those two viewpoints. However, there are those here who ascribe to supralapsarianism, infralapsarianism or sublapsarianism and the issue is still under investigation. This is an oft debated issue and subject is too lengthy to discuss because we do not have time here in eternity.

John: Was Jesus a supralapsarian, infralapsarian or sublapsarian?

God: Do not test my patience John!

John: Okay, let's see if I understand yet. Duncan was a sinner; I am a sinner. Duncan sinned; I sinned. But I, unlike Duncan, go away to eternal torment.

GOD: You sinned; Duncan sinned. But My Son died for Duncan's sins.

John: And mine?

GOD: My Son's atonement was a "particular redemption."

John: Particular?

God: Yes, limited to atone for the sins of the elect.

John: Well then, what on earth could I have done? I did not realize I was not elected.

GOD: As, I most Holy, Powerful and Almighty Sovereign God hath sayeth beforehand, there is nothing you could have done. If I had elected you before creation and predestined you to be born again so that you could believe with a saving faith, you would have been saved and known that I had elected you to believe and be saved so that you would know this is in fact what I did. However, that not being the case.....

John: But I DID believe in you Most Holy, Merciful, Compassionate, Longsuffering, Kind and Loving Creator.

God: Yes, I am quite aware of that John. However, you unfortunately did not possess "saving faith."

John: And what kind of faith is that?

GOD: That's the kind the elect had.

John: And how could I have believed with saving faith?

GOD: You couldn't. You were not elected.

John: So what of my life, my trials, my devotion, my prayers? Why was I even born.?

GOD: That's a complex issue.

John: My God, why have you forsaken me? What could I have done?

GOD: Nothing. There is nothing you could have done. Technically, its your fault you are going to hell.

John: Why?

GOD: Because you are a sinner and you sinned.

John: And there was nothing done to take care of my predicament?

GOD: For you, No.

John: And having my sins washed away was not ever a real possiblity because you did not preordain Christ to die for me as you did for Duncan.

GOD: That's right John.

John: So then this is somewhat of a farce here today because you had this already decided before anything was even created.

God: John, don't make me turn up the temperature for you.

John: You knit me together in my mother's womb knowing that you would be sending me to everlasting torment here today?

GOD: Well yes John.

John: So what you are saying is that you created a person who was destined to your everlasting hellfire and torment and there was nothing done to save me from that destiny?

GOD: Now you understand.

Take him to the pit.

[ February 23, 2005, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Ben Elohim ]

 

Ben.

I take it you don't buy it Ben.

RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

johnp.

 

I take it you don't buy it Ben.

RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]No I do not buy eisegetical readings of Romans 9. Would you like to discuss this passage? If so, please start a thread on it and I would be happy to discuss it with you.

Do you insist that everyone's ultimate fate on Judgment Day was fixed before anything was ever created and no one's destiny could have ever been changed, whether to heaven, or to hellfire?

[ February 23, 2005, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Ben Elohim ]

 

Ben, that was classic! Nice work.

 

Ben.

I'm never far from Romans nine. It's bound to crop up here.

Well I suppose you could say 'insist' but I would rather say 'contend'. That is what I contend for.
I read your post and agreed with most of it!

Essentially God creates people and sends them to hell and everything in between was the work of God. Blunt and to the point.

johnp.

 

I'm never far from Romans nine. It's bound to crop up here.

Well I suppose you could say 'insist' but I would rather say 'contend'. That is what I contend for.
I read your post and agreed with most of it!

Essentially God creates people and sends them to hell and everything in between was the work of God. Blunt and to the point.

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]And the point of Judgment Day is?

 

Hello Ben.

The point of Judgement Day is the revealing of God's glory.
Adam's sin has not yet run it's course as all other sins have not. It is the end where the totting up comes in. It is not until the end can we be judged according to what we have done and the consequences we have caused.
Once the results are in then God will show each sinner His sins and they will recognise them as their own.
If a person dies before Judgement Day and that person was not chosen in Him before the creation of the world then he is held in the condition, albeit apart from his body, that he will be in forever. ...and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 2 Peter 2:9.
The Christian will be shown what he has missed by the grace of God and will rejoice that much better for knowing what they he has missed.
Those who find themselves in the former camp will be there because they served the Lord's will and the Christians will be there because they served the Lord's will.
Essentially God creates people and sends them to hell and everything in between was the work of God. Blunt and to the point.
Judgement Day is a public declaration of man's sin and the beginning of the party for many.

Whatcha think?

johnp.

 

So then, Judgment Day is for the express purpose of "showing people" that God had pre-determined their fate for this Day before any of them existed, correct?

 

Ben.

The point of Judgement Day is the revealing of God's glory so I said.
Whilst not endorsing the skit below entirely I go with the gist of it.

John: My God, why have you forsaken me? What could I have done?

GOD: Nothing. There is nothing you could have done. Technically, its your fault you are going to hell.

John: Why?

GOD: Because you are a sinner and you sinned.

John: And there was nothing done to take care of my predicament?

GOD: For you, No.

John: And having my sins washed away was not ever a real possiblity because you did not preordain Christ to die for me as you did for Duncan.

GOD: That's right John.

John: So then this is somewhat of a farce here today because you had this already decided before anything was even created.

God: John, don't make me turn up the temperature for you.

John: You knit me together in my mother's womb knowing that you would be sending me to everlasting torment here today?

GOD: Well yes John.

John: So what you are saying is that you created a person who was destined to your everlasting hellfire and torment and there was nothing done to save me from that destiny?

GOD: Now you understand.

Take him to the pit.

johnp.

 

And the Bible indicates the purpose of Judgment Day is what?

 

The point of Judgement Day is the revealing of God's glory so I said.

johnp.

 

The point of Judgement Day is the revealing of God's glory so I said.

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]So what is God judging exactly according to Scripture? And why is God doing this, according to Scripture?

 

So what is God judging exactly according to Scripture?
Men.
And why is God doing this, according to Scripture?
Because He is Judge.

johnp.

 

And (1) what is God judging and (2) what is his purpose for doing this judging. What do the Scriptures say?

 

And angels?

To reveal His glory by way of His wrath I've told you.

johnp.

 

Why don't you provide some Scripture which tells us what God will be judging on the Day and for what purpose he will be judging?

 

Why don't you ask me questions properly? Why do you act like some great detective trying to weddle a confession out of a suspect. I will tell you what you want to know just ask me the question properly so that I understand and reply to what you want to know.
I am not ashamed of my beliefs. Your traps are of no concern to me. My Lord keeps my path straight.

...and for what purpose he will be judging?
He only has one purpose and that is to reveal His glory. What do you want me to say? How about this, God, in His Sovereign will, He deemed it acceptable that He produce people fit for Hell so that He could strut His stuff regarding His wrath and His mercy! That is the purpose of Judgement Day.

Some ammunition for you?

You must put the question properly. I shall not do it for you. Ask the right question and you will get the answer you are looking for I assure you.
You wants stones to stone me with I have plenty.

johnp.

 

I see, you want to be stubbornly disingenuous and mischievous? Is that what you mean?

And provide no Scriptural support for your assertions?

 

No I want to speak the word of God in truth. What's wrong with that?
Is my promise to answer your questions with the truth and with integrity not good enough or are you being bitchy because I hurt your feelings?

What assertions are you talking about?

johnp.