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The Son of God is God the Son?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BobRyan, Jul 6, 2003.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Since this one subject is being debated on every Catholic subject thread started so far (or so it seems).

    I thought it might be helpful to have it here - and let the other subject threads get back on topic.

    Here is my take includeing a post from another person on this message area..

    Places where Christ is said to BE God.
    _______________


    "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form," - Colossians 2:9

    "But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom." - Hebrews 1:8

    "Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." - Acts 20:28

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." - John 1:1, 14

    "Jesus said to them, 'My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.' For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own father, making himself equal with God." - John 5:17, 18

    "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'" - John 20:28


    The 3 person Trinity mentioned in scripture
    _________________


    Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

    Luke 3:22, "And the Holy Ghost (God the Holy Spirit) descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon Him (Jesus Christ/God the Son), and a voice came from Heaven (God the Father), which said, 'Thou art My beloved Son; in Thee I am will pleased."

    John 14:16, "And I (God the Son) will pray the Father (God the Father), and He shall give you another Comforter (God the Holy Spirit), that He may abide with you for ever."

    2 Corinthians 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen." (I thought it interesting that the Holy Spirit is Who is present in communion, not the literal flesh of the Son.)

    I Peter 1:2, "Elect, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..."


    Divine attributes of Christ that belong to "God alone"
    ------------


    This is a great list. I have used this in dialoging with a certain denomination that comes door to door and is known for Arian views on the trinity.

    Also I have used the model of taking the "God Alone" texts and showing that Christ claims those attributes.


    God alone is from everlasting (so also is Christ)

    God alone is immortal - so is Christ.

    God alone is the creator - so is Christ.

    God alone is the judge of mankind - so is Christ

    God alone is to be worshipped - so is Christ to be worshipped.

    God alone has life IN Himself - so does Christ.

    (Christ claims that He raises HIMSELF from the dead)

    God will not share His glory with another - Christ shares God's glory.

    Many examples in scripture where the God-alone attributes - are Christ's.


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, Jul 6, 2003
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Kelly,

    Is it your view that Christ is not God or that He is not God from everlasting - but was created by God the Father?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #2 BobRyan, Jul 6, 2003
  3. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    Let's not forget these:

    Phil 2:5-8 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."


    ["Form of God" = morphe, a Greek word which means "an inward reality that expresses itself outwardly,+ i.e., form of God= "in very nature God," which is how some other translations render it.]

    Rom 9:5 "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

    Heb 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

    IN this quotation from the OT, the Father calls the Son "God."
     
    #3 Major B, Jul 6, 2003
  4. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    I do not believe that Jesus is equal to God.
    I do not believe that Jesus is without a beginning.
    I do not believe that Jesus was created by God.

    Jesus proceeded forth from God, as the Word of God. He told us Himself that God is greater than Him. I do not believe that God created Jesus, but rather that Jesus and God TOGETHER created the Heavens and the Earth. It was THROUGH Jesus, the Word of God, the Son of God, that God created all things. The WORDS of His mouth, LITERALLY proceeded forth, and came out of Him (God) and through the power of His Word, He spoke into existence ALL things.

    God Bless,
    Kelly

    PS, why didn't you ever engage me in the trinity debate on the VOAF, but are willing to here?
     
    #4 3AngelsMom, Jul 6, 2003
  5. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    It seems to me that you are playing word games here. You are saying that God did create Jesus by speaking, which is still creating.

    According to John, Jesus was with God in the beginning. I don't see how Jesus could have been created before the beginning. If Jesus was with God at the beginning, then Jesus was always with God. [​IMG]
     
    #5 Eladar, Jul 6, 2003
  6. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    It seems to me that you are playing word games here. You are saying that God did create Jesus by speaking, which is still creating.</font>[/QUOTE]I did NOT say that God created Jesus by speaking.
    Yes, and I don't disagree with that. He certainly was there with God, because it was THROUGH Jesus that God created the earth!
    Neather do I, seeing as how I don't believe that He was created.
    There is no evidence in the Bible to support this rule of absolutes that you have created. Jesus being 'with' God in the beginning DOES NOT express that Jesus has ALWAYS been with God.

    My son was with his father at the beginning of our marriage. (he is my step son) Does that mean that his son has always been with him?

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
    #6 3AngelsMom, Jul 6, 2003
  7. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Kelly,

    Is Jesus an angel?
     
    #7 Carson Weber, Jul 6, 2003
  8. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    In the meaning of the word angel, yes, Jesus is a Messenger.

    Is He what most think of when they think of an angel? No. He is not a winged created being.

    When were the Angels created?

    When did Lucifer fall?

    When did Michael and His Angels fight against Lucifer and his angels?

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
    #8 3AngelsMom, Jul 6, 2003
  9. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    It seems that you are saying that God spoke Jesus into existance.

    In any case, are you trying to say that God is not the only being that has always been?
     
    #9 Eladar, Jul 6, 2003
  10. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Kelly, I'm confused. You say you do not believe that Jesus is without a beginning, yet you also say you do not believe he was created. This seems like a contradiction to everyone here, including me. Why not clear things up and simply explain what you *do* believe about the origin of Jesus?
     
    #10 BrianT, Jul 6, 2003
  11. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    It seems that you are saying that God spoke Jesus into existance.

    In any case, are you trying to say that God is not the only being that has always been?     </font>[/QUOTE]I am not saying that God spoke Jesus into existence. I am saying that God, THROUGH Jesus, the Word of God, SPOKE into existence all things. When God spoke, Jesus proceeded forth, or came out, or was born of God. Before God spoke, Jesus was still in God.

    Am I trying to say that God is not the only being that has always been?

    I thought that was what the trinitarians believed! Don't you think that Jesus and the Holy Spirit have always been, along with God?

    I do NOT believe that Jesus has ALWAYS existed.

    I think He had a beginning.

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
    #11 3AngelsMom, Jul 6, 2003
  12. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi Kelly,

    Is Jesus an angel like Gabriel?

    Is He what most think of when they think of an angel? No. He is not a winged created being.

    Not a single Catholic I know believes that angels have wings; they're pure spirits. Angels are portrayed as having wings in paintings and drawings to symbolize their swiftness.

    The Angels are a part of the heavens, which were created "in the beginning".

    "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Gen 1:1)
     
    #12 Carson Weber, Jul 6, 2003
  13. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    How did Jesus come into being if not as a creation of God?

    Are you saying that it is possible for something (someone) to be created without God?
     
    #13 Eladar, Jul 6, 2003
  14. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    There's a simple solution to your confusion.

    Stop trying to impose an 'either or' mentality on your interpretation of the Bible.

    There is no rule in the Bible which states that somthing must either be God, or be created.

    I believe that Jesus was born of God.

    I do not believe that Adam, for example, was born of God.

    We, through Christ are BORN of God, becuase CHRIST was born of God!

    We can only access through Christ, the things which Christ has accessed.

    He is the Son of God, and through Him we have access to God, to be called sons and daughters of God.

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
    #14 3AngelsMom, Jul 6, 2003
  15. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    I believe Kelly wants to have her cake and eat it too. She doesn't want Jesus to be created, and yet she doesn't want for him to be God. What she doesn't understand is that if there is a time when the Son of God was not, he was created. Period. You can't demand what is impossible, and time is a creature feature.
     
    #15 Carson Weber, Jul 6, 2003
  16. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Is this a literal birth? Who do you believe God mated with? Himself?
     
    #16 Eladar, Jul 6, 2003
  17. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    What other options are there?

    What does that even mean? It sounds like a some kind of "beginning" to me.

    And how is that not "creation"?
     
    #17 BrianT, Jul 6, 2003
  18. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    I don't like cake.
    This isn't a matter of what I 'want'. The Bible does not provide that Jesus was created by God, even though it does say He is the firstborn over all creation. It also does not provide that Jesus is equal to God, therefore He is not the Most High God.
    Wrong. He proceeded out of God. There was a time when He did not exist as 'Jesus' or the 'Son of God'. There was a time when He was still IN God. He came out. NOW, He is Yeshua, the Son of God, and the Savior of the world.
    It is impossible that God could exist and not have a beginning. Everything in this universe has a beginning and an end. Calling something 'impossible' does not change it. If God said that Jesus was born of Him, then THAT is what happened. PERIOD.
    Time is relative.

    Clocks are a creature feature.

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
    #18 3AngelsMom, Jul 7, 2003
  19. fgm

    fgm New Member

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    Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God.Jesus is God in heavenly Man form.God the Father,God the Son,and God the Holy Spirit cannot be seperated or can one be mentioned without the other.We are still talking about one GOD,who in the Man form is Jesus.Why did Joshua bow down and worship the Man that visited him and NOT get rebuked for it?[Joshua chapter 5] This Man is Jesus,God in Man form, and Joshua recognized Him as the One True God.
     
    #19 fgm, Jul 7, 2003
  20. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    I think I'm understanding how somebody could possibly deny that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, but the fact that Christ accepted worship should prove he is God.

    John 10:30...
    "I and my father are one."

    You've probably seen that verse, though.


    We see Jesus talking to the churches in Asia...

    "Saying, I am alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea." Rev 1:11

    There are so many many more verses to support Christ's deity, it's foolish for me to argue otherwise.
     
    #20 Bro. Curtis, Jul 7, 2003
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