DQuixote said:
Help me out here, Dustin. If 5-point Calvinism is true, then wouldn't it be impossible for those chosen in advance to reject salvation? Or unnecessary to even bother about salvation, since they have an advance guarantee?
Isn't it more sound to say that God came up with a plan to invite all his creation to receive Jesus as Savior, and some who hear the message reject it? Given a choice, the rejecters choose not to believe? Isn't it a little off the mark to say that man in his sinful state can't accept or reject the Gospel? If the Holy Spirit is the one who brings the message (and He is), then the call is authentic and based on God's love for his creation, is it not? If that is the case isn't it a little off the mark to suggest that a loving God created SOME who are too sinful to accept, or to even hear God's call? I get the image of a guy sitting in a dirty bar drinking beer, chain smoking in the presence of other beer guzzlers and chain smokers, uttering one curse word after another, one sad song after another on the juke box (do they still have those?) when the dump catches on fire and he can't escape.
God is sovereign, of course. He is also love. What say you?
Great question! About Unconditional Election, this particualar aspect is an eternal decree. Quite simply, God knows whom He has chosen, we do not. It is very safe to say that there are people in churches where the Gospel is not being preached, no sacraments administered, faithful biblical exposition going on, that at some point before they die, will be moved away from such teaching and believe the true Gospel and be saved.
Conversly, there are those who are in very conservative, Bible believing churches that administer the sacraments and hear solid, sound, teaching every Lord's Day that will, at some point before they die, turn away from the faith completely.
Now, if you look at these people in thier present state, it's safe to say you would assume that the outcome would be the opposite from what I just described. But we don't know for sure. But, I believe that the outcome of those peoples lives would be exactly according to God's eternal decree of election. God has mercy on whom He has mercy, God hardens whomever He will harden. We do not know who the chosen are, God does. Predestination, election and the like seem unfair to us. They seemed unfair to me at one time, but it's in the Bible, I must accept it.
Don't think that I am being cold, or unloving, because as much as I might come off being that way, it's not intended. Indeed, considering our sinfulness, and God's holiness, it is a wonder why He chose to save ANY of us. God loves his creation, no doubt about that. I believe God loves His WHOLE creation. But not the same way He loves a believer in Christ. In Romans 8 it says that God foreknows us. What does that mean? Not that He simply knew that at some point in the future we would become Christians, but that He knew us in a very intimate sense. Because the Bible says those He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed in the image of His Son.
Now of course, God forknew everything. He foreknew those who would be saved and those who would be damned. God knew in eternity past that Peter and Judas Iscariot would make professions of Christ. He knew Peter would deny Christ. He knew that Judas would betray Christ. But what really seperates Peter from Judas Iscariot? They were both sinners. They both turned away from Christ. But Peter died a martyr and Judas died an apostate. What's the difference? God is. It pleased God to grant Peter repenance and it pleased God to condemn Judas. God forknew Peter, pedestined him to be conformed to the image of His Son, He called him, justified him, and glorified him. God foreknew Judas, but not in the same way. God loved Peter in a more intimate way that He loved Judas, to put it very simply.
I'm not even done with answering your post, and I've rambled so much already. I'm gonna cut it off for now. It's just really good questions like this are a long time coming.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin
