And that means, "atonement made" as it is precisely stated in the Scriptures. Not, as you claim, "... available for all ..." only as if powerless and in vain while in the last analysis not yet appropriated by man. God is the Sovereign; not man!
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- Thread starter His Blood Spoke My Name
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
BR:
"Read your Bible sir. Less smoke - more fire please.
John 12:32 "I will draw ALL unto Me".
Be convicted. Accept the Word of God."
Dead wrong "again".
Christ did not DRAW scripture - scripture does not MOVE sir!!
Christ already stated in John 8 that scripture ALREADY speaks of Christ - - BEFORE even being Born it was ALREADY showing the "sufferings of the Messiah AND the glories to follow" as Peter said.
Christ DRAWS mankind as He stated EXPLICITLY in John 6 and in the case of John 12:32 we simply see that the Cross is the central focus from which He draws ALL both in the OT and the NT!!
Dead wrong. Again.
ALL ARE DRAWN to Him John 12:32
He is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man John 1.
He convicts THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment -- John 16.
Time after time you are shown to contradict the Word of God in your ceaseless efforts to "make stuff up".
What I am dying to know is - what in the world kind of church do you attend that teaches you to go to such wild extremes?? Of all on this board you come across as one who is not well anchored. And that is saying something since in some cases I recognize that you agree with some degree of truth -- only to swing out into a wild made up field of error even on those points.
Where is all of that coming from sir??
in Christ,
Bob
BR:
"Rom 1018 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have"
Again, you reject the context, which reads: "But they (Israel), have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Esiaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by HEARING, and hearing by the WORD of God. But I (Paul) say, Have THEY (Israel) not heard? Yes, verily, their sound ("Glad Tidings" verse 15) went into all the earth, and their words unto all the ends of the world."
This is unrecognisable in the 'version' you have used, and I won't apologise therefore for having been mistaken. The meaning in the true version - the KJV in this case - is that ISRAEL have ALL heard because the Word has followed them over all the face of the earth; not that all men upon the face of the earth have heard the Gospel. Paul certainly didn't mean that, or he must have been stupid.
"Rom 1018 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have"
Again, you reject the context, which reads: "But they (Israel), have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Esiaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by HEARING, and hearing by the WORD of God. But I (Paul) say, Have THEY (Israel) not heard? Yes, verily, their sound ("Glad Tidings" verse 15) went into all the earth, and their words unto all the ends of the world."
This is unrecognisable in the 'version' you have used, and I won't apologise therefore for having been mistaken. The meaning in the true version - the KJV in this case - is that ISRAEL have ALL heard because the Word has followed them over all the face of the earth; not that all men upon the face of the earth have heard the Gospel. Paul certainly didn't mean that, or he must have been stupid.
BR:
"He is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man John 1."
GE:
Every one that is enlightened. Or do you allege every person who ever lived had been enlightened with the light of the Gospel? Then they all should be saved, for that is what to be enlightened by the light of the Gospel means. Or does it not mean that to you? Then must the Gospel be meaningless and uneffective falsehood? Either it means He is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man that is saved, or man is saved by himself.
"He is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man John 1."
GE:
Every one that is enlightened. Or do you allege every person who ever lived had been enlightened with the light of the Gospel? Then they all should be saved, for that is what to be enlightened by the light of the Gospel means. Or does it not mean that to you? Then must the Gospel be meaningless and uneffective falsehood? Either it means He is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man that is saved, or man is saved by himself.
BR:
"Dead wrong "again".
Christ did not DRAW scripture - scripture does not MOVE sir!!"
GE:
Too senseless to comment on.
"Dead wrong "again".
Christ did not DRAW scripture - scripture does not MOVE sir!!"
GE:
Too senseless to comment on.
BR:
"He convicts THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment -- John 16."
GE:
Here we see the same kind of 'revelation' Paul refers to in Romans. 'Natural revelation' excuses no single human being, but also saves no single human being. That is what 'the world' may mean, if the context requires it, like here and in Romans 1.
Saving 'revelation' (or 'special revelation' as the learned refer to it) saves effectively and without fail each and every object of its intention. That is what 'the world' may mean, if the context requires it, like in John 3:16 and in Romans 12.
There's a vast difference between being judged and condemned and being judged savingly.
"He convicts THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment -- John 16."
GE:
Here we see the same kind of 'revelation' Paul refers to in Romans. 'Natural revelation' excuses no single human being, but also saves no single human being. That is what 'the world' may mean, if the context requires it, like here and in Romans 1.
Saving 'revelation' (or 'special revelation' as the learned refer to it) saves effectively and without fail each and every object of its intention. That is what 'the world' may mean, if the context requires it, like in John 3:16 and in Romans 12.
There's a vast difference between being judged and condemned and being judged savingly.
BR:
"What I am dying to know is - what in the world kind of church do you attend that teaches you to go to such wild extremes?? Of all on this board you come across as one who is not well anchored. And that is saying something since in some cases I recognize that you agree with some degree of truth -- only to swing out into a wild made up field of error even on those points."
GE:
I am saved by Jesus Christ, what does it matter which Church I belong to? Though I believe the Church, "the Body of Christ's Own" - Colossians 2:16 - even in close connection with its Sabbaths' Feasts, it is not the Church that is the object of my faith, nor the subject of my salvation or faith. I assure you though, it is I, and not you, who is nearest pure Protestant Christianity, always in the line of fire and ridicule and contempt.
"What I am dying to know is - what in the world kind of church do you attend that teaches you to go to such wild extremes?? Of all on this board you come across as one who is not well anchored. And that is saying something since in some cases I recognize that you agree with some degree of truth -- only to swing out into a wild made up field of error even on those points."
GE:
I am saved by Jesus Christ, what does it matter which Church I belong to? Though I believe the Church, "the Body of Christ's Own" - Colossians 2:16 - even in close connection with its Sabbaths' Feasts, it is not the Church that is the object of my faith, nor the subject of my salvation or faith. I assure you though, it is I, and not you, who is nearest pure Protestant Christianity, always in the line of fire and ridicule and contempt.
DQuixote said:
Well the thing about it is Reformed theology is a lot more than just Calvinism. The same as SDA theology is more than just Arminianism.
If we understand each others distinctives, the less likely it is to get sidetracked from the issue being discussed. I have a real problem with that, and my attention span isn't very long (ADHD) so it's quite easy for me to lose sight of the real issue.
Long story short: It's very important to know what pressupositions are being brought into the discussion.
I'm glad to know my answer helped you out a little. You are always welcome.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin