The Sovereignty of God

pinoybaptist · Jul 14, 2002

God is sovereign. He is God of gods, Lord of lords. Arthur W. Pink said it best in his time, and he still does in our time. Here are a few excerpts from his book:

The sovereignty of God. What do we mean by this expression? We mean the supremacy of God, the kingship of God, the godhood of God. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that God is God. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the Most High, doing according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, so that none can stay His hand or say unto Him what doest Thou? (Dan. 4:35). To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the Almighty, the Possessor of all power in heaven and earth, so that none can defeat His counsels, thwart His purpose, or resist His will (Ps. 115:3). To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Ps. 22:28), setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best. To say that God is sovereign is to declare that He is the "Only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" (1 Tim. 6:15). Such is the God of the Bible.

How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of a maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence.[1] To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellow-men are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity: is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being.

To declare that the Creator’s original plan has been frustrated by sin, is to dethrone God. To suggest that God was taken by surprise in Eden and that He is now attempting to remedy an unforeseen calamity, is to degrade the Most High to the level of a finite, erring mortal. To argue that man is a free moral agent and the determiner of his own destiny, and that therefore he has the power to checkmate his Maker, is to strip God of the attribute of Omnipotence. To say that the creature has burst the hounds assigned by his Creator, and that God is now practically a helpless Spectator before the sin and suffering entailed by Adam’s fall, is to repudiate the express declaration of Holy Writ, namely, "Surely the wrath of man shall praise Thee: the remainder of wrath shalt Thou restrain" (Ps. 76:10). In a word, to deny the sovereignty of God is to enter upon a path which, if followed to its logical terminus, is to arrive at blank atheism.

The sovereignty of the God of Scripture is absolute, irresistible, infinite. When we say that God is sovereign we affirm His right to govern the universe, which He has made for His own glory, just as He pleases. We affirm that His right is the right of the Potter over the clay, i.e., that He may mould that clay into whatsoever form He chooses, fashioning out of the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor. We affirm that He is under no rule or law outside of His own will and nature, that God is a law unto Himself, and that He is under no obligation to give an account of His matters to any.
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Part One. I shall continue to post from his book.

Let them who would create a pseudo-sovereign God answer, if they will.

ScottEmerson · Jul 14, 2002

Can I just add that Pink uses more non sequiter logic than pretty much any writer that I've read?

For example... He says that to say that God wants all men to be saved...is to show that the Spirit has been defeated.

KenH · Jul 14, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
For example... He says that to say that God wants all men to be saved...is to show that the Spirit has been defeated.
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And you know what, Scott, A.W. Pink is absolutely right.

This book by Pink, The Sovereignty of God, was used aa a tremendous means by God to bring me to repentance and faith. It is the best uninspired book I have ever read. I couldn't wait to get to the next page. I was like a man in the desert who had found an abundance of water.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

[ July 14, 2002, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

pinoybaptist · Jul 14, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Can I just add that Pink uses more non sequiter logic than pretty much any writer that I've read?

For example... He says that to say that God wants all men to be saved...is to show that the Spirit has been defeated.
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non-sequitur ? Explain why his logic does not follow his preceding or succeeding logic.

pinoybaptist · Jul 14, 2002

The Sovereignty of God by AW Pink...2nd Installment on Intro...

Sovereignty characterizes the whole Being of God. He is sovereign in all His attributes. He is sovereign in the exercise of His power. His power is exercised as He wills, when He wills, where He wills. This fact is evidenced on every page of Scripture. For a long season that power appears to be dormant, and then it is put forth in irresistible might. Pharaoh dared to hinder Israel from going forth to worship Jehovah in the wilderness—what happened? God exercised His power, His people were delivered and their cruel task-masters slain. But a little later, the Amalekites dared to attack these same Israelites in the wilderness, and what happened? Did God put forth His power on this occasion and display His hand as He did at the Red Sea? Were these enemies of His people promptly overthrown and destroyed? No, on the contrary, the Lord swore that He would "have war with Amalek from generation to generation" (Ex. 17:16). Again, when Israel entered the land of Canaan, God’s power was signally displayed. The city of Jericho barred their progress—what happened? Israel did not draw a bow nor strike a blow: the Lord stretched forth His hand and the walls fell down flat. But the miracle was never repeated! No other city fell after this manner. Every other city had to be captured by the sword!

Many other instances might be adduced illustrating the sovereign exercise of God’s power. Take one other example. God put forth His power and David was delivered from Goliath, the giant; the mouths of the lions were closed and Daniel escaped unhurt; the three Hebrew children were cast into the burning fiery furnace and came forth unharmed and unscorched. But God’s power did not always interpose for the deliverance of His people, for we read: "And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: they were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword; they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented" (Heb. 11:36, 37). But why? Why were not these men of faith delivered like the others? Or, why were not the others suffered to be killed like these? Why should God’s power interpose and rescue some and not the others? Why allow Stephen to be stoned to death, and then deliver Peter from prison?

God is sovereign in the delegation of His power to others. Why did God endow Methuselah with a vitality which enabled him to outlive all his contemporaries? Why did God impart to Samson a physical strength which no other human has ever possessed? Again; it is written, "But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is He that giveth thee power to get wealth" (Deut. 8:18), but God does not bestow this power on all alike. Why not? Why has He given such power to men like Morgan, Carnegie, Rockefeller? The answer to all of these questions, is, Because God is Sovereign, and being Sovereign He does as He pleases.

God is sovereign in the exercise of His mercy. Necessarily so, for mercy is directed by the will of Him that showeth mercy. Mercy is not a right to which man is entitled. Mercy is that adorable attribute of God by which He pities and relieves the wretched. But under the righteous government of God no one is wretched who does not deserve to be so. The objects of mercy, then, are those who are miserable, and all misery is the result of sin, hence the miserable are deserving of punishment not mercy. To speak of deserving mercy is a contradiction of terms.

God bestows His mercies on whom He pleases and withholds them as seemeth good unto Himself. A remarkable illustration of this fact is seen in the manner that God responded to the prayers of two men offered under very similar circumstances. Sentence of death was passed upon Moses for one act of disobedience, and he besought the Lord for a reprieve. But was his desire gratified? No; he told Israel, "The Lord is wroth with me for your sakes, and would not hear me: and the Lord said unto me, Let it suffice thee" (Deut. 3:26). Now mark the second case

those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live. Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord, saying, I beseech Thee, O Lord, remember now how I have walked before Thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in Thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore. And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the Lord. And I will add unto thy days fifteen years" (2 Kings 20:1-6). Both of these men had the sentence of death in themselves, and both prayed earnestly unto the Lord for a reprieve: the one wrote: "The Lord would not hear me," and died; but to the other it was said, "I have heard thy prayer", and his life was spared. What an illustration and exemplification of the truth expressed in Romans 9:15!—"For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

The sovereign exercise of God’s mercy—pity shown to the wretched—was displayed when Jehovah became flesh and tabernacled among men. Take one illustration. During one of the Feasts of the Jews, the Lord Jesus went up to Jerusalem. He came to the Pool of Bethesda, where lay "a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water." Among this "great multitude" there was "a certain man which had an infirmity thirty and eight years." What happened? "When Jesus saw hint lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole? The impotent man answered Him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me. Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk. And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked" (John 5:3-9). Why was this one man singled out from all the others? We are not told that he cried "Lord, have mercy on me." There is not a word in the narrative which intimates that this man possessed any qualifications which entitled him to receive special favor. Here then was a case of the sovereign exercise of Divine mercy, for it was just as easy for Christ to heal the whole of that "great multitude" as this one "certain man." But lie did not. He put forth His power and relieved the wretchedness of this one particular sufferer, and for some reason known only to Himself, He declined to do the same for the others. Again, we say, what an illustration and exemplification of Romans 9:15!—"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
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Is there anybody in this board who can explain away God and His sovereignty in a not non-sequitur way ?

Baptist Believer · Jul 15, 2002

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Can I just add that Pink uses more non sequiter logic than pretty much any writer that I've read?

For example... He says that to say that God wants all men to be saved...is to show that the Spirit has been defeated.
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non-sequitur ? Explain why his logic does not follow his preceding or succeeding logic.[/QUOTE]I'll play...

Pink and most five-point Calvinists seem to confuse sovereignty with a dictatorship.

Why is it so far out of your imagination to believe that God is sovereign, but His character is such that He wants us to respond in love -- real love, not some sort of robotic act but a love that requires a choice -- that he allows free will in the context of His creation?

Why does sovereignty have to mean that we are some sort of benign puppets in God's self-involved drama?

Why you insist that God has created life -- which He deliberately won't redeem -- so He can torture people for their unintended sins? -- Remember they had no choice in the matter according to the Calvinism that Pink espouses.

And why do you Five-point Calvinists always assume they are part of the elect? If you believe in a God that created most of humankind for destruction, why are you so sure He is not stringing you along?

I can expect the usual theological clap-trap and the rationalistic T-U-L-I-P house of cards philosophy, but I can't accept your conception of the heart of God.

Since I know that it is God's desire for all to come to repentance, if I accepted 5-point Calvinism, I would have to be a universalist. While in a lot of ways I would like universalism to be true, the New Testament and common experience doesn't back it. Therefore, I am left with something other than Calvinism.

(Yes I unloaded on you and this is not a closely worded argument. You can probably find lots of things to pick apart, but I know the heart of God through scripture and from personally experiencing it through Jesus Christ. Man-made theories can't shake what I know to be true through experience. Feel free to pick it apart now. It will make you feel better. )

[ July 15, 2002, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

Baptist Believer · Jul 15, 2002

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Is there anybody in this board who can explain away God and His sovereignty in a not non-sequitur way ?
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No one is trying to "explain away God and His sovereignty". It is that kind of condescending thinking that probably won't allow you to really listen to a different opinion.

Actually, I think you are trying to explain away God's loving character in a non-sequitur way. See my nearby post for more information.

I'm more than a little cranky tonight about people misrepresenting God...

Primitive Baptist · Jul 15, 2002

More human reasoning

Baptist Believer · Jul 15, 2002

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
More human reasoning
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And your theology somehow comes from God through scripture to us without being interpreted through your mind, experience, prejudices, philosophical background, the influences on your life, you theological training, your family experience, the Bible translations you read, your prayer life, your personality, your maturity and your temperament?

Don't scoff at others for having human reasoning unless you are something other than human! With that attitude you can never be wrong... and we all are wrong about some things.

[ July 15, 2002, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

pinoybaptist · Jul 15, 2002

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:

<snip>
I'm more than a little cranky tonight about people misrepresenting God...

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So do I !
It's amazing how you would like the Sovereign God to treat you like an equal in that you feel like a robot in the face of his sovereignty.
I refer you to God's questions to Job in Chapters 38 to 41, all 129 verses and pray tell if God is not saying He will do as He pleases to His creation and creatures.
According to God himself, Job was a righteous man, one who feared God and escheweth evil, so pray tell me and others here, why did God allow Job to suffer under Satan ?
His friends thought he was suffering and being chastised because of some secret sin, do you, too ? Did God ever reveal to Job why he was put under such extreme suffering and losses ?
In a nutshell, were we there when God alone was the only Presence in the vast emptiness of space, before He created anything or anyone ?
I get as equally cranky when people accuse God of creating man in order to destroy them or make them suffer in hell, conveniently forgetting that man sinned and have been under condemnation from Adam onward, and refuse to let God be sovereign in His choice of whom to save and have mercy on, and whom to pass by and leave to their sins and the punishment thereof.
And how can a corrupt heart respond with love, real love ? Are you saying you are perfectly capable, on your own, to respond with love, real love ? Do you call God a liar when He caused it to be written that we are all dead in sin ?
Are you claiming, like the founder of the Moonies, to have sat at Jesus' feet in heaven and therefore you alone know God's heart, and others who would stand in awe at his power and extol his sovereignty are pretenders ?
And where in these posts did Calvinists and those who believe in election say that God created man so he can torture them ?
We do not worship such a god.
We do worship a God who put on human flesh, and set his face to go to Jerusalem, and the sufferings there, that he may redeem those whom he has set his love on.
Self-involved drama ? You dare insinuate that God is egocentric ? self-centered ? Can you hang on the cross, totally naked, for three hours, and bear that pain ? Can you control yourself and not call on the angels just waiting for your call and just be silent while they whose faces you created smash their fists and palms in your face, as Jesus did ? Are you able to bear the pain of those bones at the end of those whips as those thongs wrap around your body and then rip your belly and your back as it is pulled away by the one wielding it ?
Self-involved ?
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tyndale1946 · Jul 15, 2002

Brethren... brethren what's with all the angry faces are we enemies or Christian brethren debating doctrine? Lets be more Christ like to one another we may disagree but let us do it in Christian brotherhood!... Brother Glen

pinoybaptist · Jul 15, 2002

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Brethren... brethren what's with all the angry faces are we enemies or Christian brethren debating doctrine? Lets be more Christ like to one another we may disagree but let us do it in Christian brotherhood!... Brother Glen
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You're right, Brother Glen. I apologize to everybody. I shall continue to post AW Pink's book, in parts, as time permits. Now, this is a different red face.

KenH · Jul 15, 2002

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Why is it so far out of your imagination to believe that God is sovereign, but His character is such that He wants us to respond in love -- real love, not some sort of robotic act but a love that requires a choice -- that he allows free will in the context of His creation?
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If God is sovereign, then He must always attain what He desires. If He does not always attain what He desires, then to at least some extent He is not sovereign and is not God.

So if God wants every single person who ever lives to be saved according to your view, but does not attain the result, then God is not God. If He cannot always attain what He wants according to your view, then how can you trust Him to save you? Perhaps something will prevent Him from accomplishing that.

One who trusts in the never failing God,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

Baptist Believer · Jul 15, 2002

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:

<snip>
I'm more than a little cranky tonight about people misrepresenting God...

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So do I !
It's amazing how you would like the Sovereign God to treat you like an equal in that you feel like a robot in the face of his sovereignty. 
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Not an equal. And I don’t feel like a robot because I don’t actually believe the doctrine I condemn. I’m making the point that we are *not* robots.

I refer you to God's questions to Job in Chapters 38 to 41, all 129 verses and pray tell if God is not saying He will do as He pleases to His creation and creatures.
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God does what He wants with His creation and His creatures. I’m just insisting that God is not pleased just to save some and condemn others. His love extends to all of us and His Spirit is working in all of humankind. Not everyone will accept His invitation, but all people have some opportunity. He wants all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

According to God himself, Job was a righteous man, one who feared God and escheweth evil, so pray tell me and others here, why did God allow Job to suffer under Satan ?
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Because Job was righteous and God had a purpose in his suffering. In fact, God brought Job to the adversary’s attention.

His friends thought he was suffering and being chastised because of some secret sin, do you, too ?
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Of course not. I don’t know what point you are trying to make here…

Did God ever reveal to Job why he was put under such extreme suffering and losses ?
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Probably not. The book of Job does not record it. But that doesn’t support your view or disprove mine.

In a nutshell, were we there when God alone was the only Presence in the vast emptiness of space, before He created anything or anyone ?
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No.

I get as equally cranky when people accuse God of creating man in order to destroy them or make them suffer in hell, conveniently forgetting that man sinned and have been under condemnation from Adam onward,
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Why are we held guilty for Adam’s sin? (I don’t believe in God judging us for Adam’s sin. Adam and Eve’s sin against God set all creation into futility and gave each one of us a bent toward sinning. We are sinners by nature and by choice, but we are not punished for Adam’s sin. We are punished for confirming Adam’s sin when we knowingly sin ourselves.)

and refuse to let God be sovereign in His choice of whom to save and have mercy on, and whom to pass by and leave to their sins and the punishment thereof.
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I can’t prevent God from doing or not doing anything and I never said I could. I just claim that God wants to save all and does not exclude anyone from His love.

And how can a corrupt heart respond with love, real love ?
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Not quite. True love requires a choice about the matter. When we receive Christ, it is something along the line of receiving a life ring when we are sinking in the ocean, realizing we are totally doomed and can’t save ourselves (even that realization is given by God). A life ring is tossed within our easy grasp and all we have to do is trust the thrower of the ring by grabbing it. At that point we are rescued, transformed, given a new Spirit and given the ability to fully respond to God in love.

Are you saying you are perfectly capable, on your own, to respond with love, real love ?
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Nope. See above.

Do you call God a liar when He caused it to be written that we are all dead in sin ?
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(Why do people always claim that someone else is "calling God a liar" when they disagree with someone’s *interpretation* of scripture? It is very arrogant and almost always untrue. For the record, I never call God a liar. I do call some doctrines "lies" though.)

I believe what Romans 3 says about us being dead in sin.

Are you claiming, like the founder of the Moonies, to have sat at Jesus' feet in heaven and therefore you alone know God's heart, and others who would stand in awe at his power and extol his sovereignty are pretenders ?
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(Wow… Guilt by association. I’ve never been compared to "Rev." Moon before!)

Nope. But I know God through Christ and the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. His word also tells us His character. I have not claimed that those who disagree with me are pretenders. I am in awe of God and extol His sovereignty too, but I disagree with Calvinists who seem to confuse sovereignty with a dictatorship. It seems very clear that free will exists within the context of God’s sovereignty.

And where in these posts did Calvinists and those who believe in election say that God created man so he can torture them ?
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I didn’t say that Calvinists believe all people are created for destruction (torture), just most of them.

This is the way I understand your argument:
1.) God creates all people.
2.) God holds people accountable for Adam’s sin.
3.) Anyone created after Adam is created under condemnation.
4.) God knows who He is going to save out of those He has created and will send the rest of them to Hell, everlasting punishment.

Therefore, God has created some for destruction.

We do not worship such a god.
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Glad to hear it. I don’t either. But Calvinism, as far as I have understood teaches this doctrine, though it is usually soft-pedaled.

We do worship a God who put on human flesh, and set his face to go to Jerusalem, and the sufferings there, that he may redeem those whom he has set his love on.
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I agree as long as you affirm that Jesus was fully human and fully God and that He has set His love on all people.

Self-involved drama ? You dare insinuate that God is egocentric ? self-centered ? Can you hang on the cross, totally naked, for three hours, and bear that pain ? Can you control yourself and not call on the angels just waiting for your call and just be silent while they whose faces you created smash their fists and palms in your face, as Jesus did ? Are you able to bear the pain of those bones at the end of those whips as those thongs wrap around your body and then rip your belly and your back as it is pulled away by the one wielding it ?
Self-involved ?
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Not at all. I’m arguing against it. The self-sacrifice of Jesus was completely self-less and demonstrates unfathomable love toward humankind. Why must you insist that it is not for everyone?

Baptist Believer · Jul 15, 2002

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Why is it so far out of your imagination to believe that God is sovereign, but His character is such that He wants us to respond in love -- real love, not some sort of robotic act but a love that requires a choice -- that he allows free will in the context of His creation?
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If God is sovereign, then He must always attain what He desires. [/QUOTE]Why are you putting this restriction on God? Why do you demand that God being sovereign demands that He not allow free will within the context of His sovereignty – that is, free will within the context of His creation, physical laws and the circumstances of our live? Why do you have a hard time believing God has ultimate control yet refuses to control His creatures?

If He does not always attain what He desires, then to at least some extent He is not sovereign and is not God.
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God is God no matter what He attains or desires (although He might not be your conception of God). Ultimately, God will attain what He desires – a people who freely respond to Him in love – but will not gain everyone He would like. I contend that His desire for us to freely respond to Him is greater than a desire to save us against our will.

So if God wants every single person who ever lives to be saved according to your view, but does not attain the result, then God is not God.
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Very poor reasoning. You need to rethink what being sovereign can mean.

If He cannot always attain what He wants according to your view, then how can you trust Him to save you? Perhaps something will prevent Him from accomplishing that.
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Because God does not fail in His purposes and does not let us go when we are born again. (You seem to believe that if people fail to respond to God’s love, that God Himself has failed. Not true. God’s purpose has been accomplished because He only wants willing worshipers.)

One who trusts in the never failing God,
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Same here.

ScottEmerson · Jul 15, 2002

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
And you know what, Scott, A.W. Pink is absolutely right.

This book by Pink, The Sovereignty of God, was used aa a tremendous means by God to bring me to repentance and faith. It is the best uninspired book I have ever read. I couldn't wait to get to the next page. I was like a man in the desert who had found an abundance of water.
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What does that say about the man who was saved after reading Grace Unlimited, by Clark Pinnock? What does that mean?

ScottEmerson · Jul 15, 2002

I would add something, but Baptist Believer covered my objections exceptionally well!

SEC

Pastor Larry · Jul 15, 2002

Shorten up your posts, Baptist Believer. Thank you.

pinoybaptist · Jul 15, 2002

originally posted by Baptist Believer:

....The self-sacrifice of Jesus was completely self-less and demonstrates unfathomable love toward humankind. Why must you insist that it is not for everyone?
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Because it is not for everyone.
Isaiah 53:5:
But he was wounded for our (not for humankind's) transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities (not for humankind's), the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his stripes we are healed (not humankind).
>>I think the above verse and the rest of Isaiah 53 is very personal, very specific, and very discriminating. God's sacrifice of himself in the person of his Son was intended for many , but not all.<<

Isaiah 52:4-6

For thus saith the Lord God, My people went down into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought ? They that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually everyday is blasphemed. Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold it is I.
>>Again, it is a my, mine sense here. God has his people, and there are those who are not His. He is a personal God, and an intimate to those whom He loves. He may be humankind's creator, but He is not humankind's worshipped God, not humankind's Father, and not humankind's savior. He is the God worshipped by those whose dead spirits He has quickened, the Father of those whom He had begotten in Christ, and the savior of those whose names He wrote in the Lamb's book of life and whom He gave to His Son.<<

From the lips of the Savior Himself.

John6:35-40

I am the bread of life; he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
>> I can almost see you grinning and saying to yourself: see ? see ? man has a part in this thing. he must come, he must believe first.
True but can he come and believe apart from God causing him to come and believe ? Let Jesus continue speaking<<

But I said unto you that ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will, that of all which
he hath given me(and apparently, God had not given all humankind to Christ to redeem for himself) I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 8:44-47 (Jesus speaking to the Jews, which are of national Israel):

Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own , for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin ? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me ?
(The reason why they don't believe him is, according to Jesus---> He that is of God heareth God's words; ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Where in these scriptures did Jesus teach that he came to save all men ? all humankind ? As you claim he did, Baptist Believer ?

ScottEmerson · Jul 15, 2002

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Because it is not for everyone.
Isaiah 53:5:
But he was wounded for our (not for humankind's) transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities (not for humankind's), the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his stripes we are healed (not humankind).
>>I think the above verse and the rest of Isaiah 53 is very personal, very specific, and very discriminating. God's sacrifice of himself in the person of his Son was intended for many , but not all.<<
Click to expand...

It is very specific. Isaiah is speaking to the nation of Israel (See previous chapter). To take it as you do implies that Christ died only for the nation of Israel. Just a problem with your interpretation.

[ July 15, 2002, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: ScottEmerson ]

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