The trouble with Fundamentalism is...

[Plain Old Bill]

There are to many splinter groups who separate themselves over petty differences.
Fundamentalists do not separate themselves from the UFO's(ultra-fundamentalist-onlyists).
The better minds in the fundamentalist movement are not writing and getting published.
There are not as many fundamentalist publishers today as there were 50 years ago.
There are no clearcut highly visable fundamentalist evangelists in public view today.
What are your views?:godisgood:

 

[bapmom]

There are to many splinter groups who separate themselves over petty differences.
Fundamentalists do not separate themselves from the UFO's(ultra-fundamentalist-onlyists).
The better minds in the fundamentalist movement are not writing and getting published.
There are not as many fundamentalist publishers today as there were 50 years ago.
There are no clearcut highly visable fundamentalist evangelists in public view today.
What are your views?:godisgood:

My first view is....complaining alone isn't going to do any good....what are you doing about it that will really make a difference?

Your first point perhaps is true - but what to you might be petty, to someone else might be quite important.....this falls under Christian liberty..

Your second point - Id say its not true everywhere....and you really can't say that you know any differently. Fundamentalists are not an organized, national group that you can regulate in this area. We fellowship with who we will, and we separate from whom we consider necessary. What is "ultra" to you might not be to me, and vice versa.

Your third point - I don't agree with at all....Ive read many good books by fundamentalists of great minds. However, isn't this a problem you can help rectify? Which specific better minds are you thinking of that are not publishing? And if they aren't publishing then how do you know they are a "better mind"?

Fourth point - I don't have enough knowledge in that area. I do know there are some beginning to start new, fundamentalist publishing companies, they just aren't real big yet.


Your last point - does there need to be? What do you consider "public view" and why do evangelists need to worry about being highly public? Perhaps you are right on this....can you help fix it? I know I can't.....being a woman and all....but you certainly could if God led. Otherwise, perhaps this is a good point to be made to encourage pastors to support good, fundamental evangelists by holding more evangelistic meetings. One thing Ive noticed more is that many fundamentalist churches are starting to hold their own conferences and rather than use visiting evangelists they are having pastors of other churches come and preach, and/or they are using preacher-men from their own church as speakers.

just my 2cents

 

[Plain Old Bill]

First I am getting people to think and discuss these topics,second I am working on a couple of books myself to be out front.

By some of the finer minds I refer to the professors in Independant Fundamental Bible Baptist colleges and seminaries writing commentaries,books on Bible Doctrine, Books on Theology or Theoligical studies...i.e..hermeneutics,apologetics,social customs in Bible times.:godisgood:

 

[bapmom]

Im glad to see you are planning a couple of books.....Id be interested in reading them

 

[Ed Edwards]

Im glad to see you are planning a couple
of books.....Id be interested in reading them

Amen, Sister Bapmom -- you are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

One of the most instructive sources i've found
denoting 'trouble with Fundamentism' is the book:

The Fundamentalist Phenomenon, Second Edition
(Baker Book House, 1986). It was written by
Ed Dobson, Ed Hindson, and Jerry Fallwell.
It is subtitled "The Resurgence of Conservative
Christianity". The section "FUNDAMENTALISM:
ITS WEAKNESS" runs from page 149 to page 156
listing ten weaknsses. Upon request to do so, I'd
like to discuss all ten weaknesses. Perchance we can
do this in this 'safe house' Forum -- safe from marauding
'left of us': Liberals, Progressives, Ecumenicals, and Moderates;
safe from dopplegangers to the
'right of us': UFO's(ultra-fundamentalist-onlyists),
British Israeli-ists, and 'let-us-set-up-the-Kingdom-now'-ites.

Upon request, I shall list all ten weaknesses
in this book. I'll mention the one I think is one
of the biggest 'trouble with Fundamentalism'.

//1. Little capacity for self-criticism.//

Recall I've been a member of a Fundamentalist Baptist
Church for 55 years. In fact, in conjunction with
many others, including professionals (I'm just an
amature), I helped turn the Southern Baptist
Convention (SBC) back into a Fundamentalist 'Denomination'.

Recall what Will Rogers said: "A member of an organized
party? - no, I've been a Democrat all my life."

Likewise, I'm not a member of a ' Denomination' -
I've been a Baptist all my life (well, at least for
55 of my 63 years)

 

[bapmom]

you're right Ed,

too often we just assume that anyone with a criticism is "attacking" or just hates the Bible and really isn't a real fundamentalist.

Personally, I tend to be a defender, so when I think someone's gearing up for a shoving match I get on the defensive side.....

but we ought to be able to handle constructive criticism.

I know someone....Bob Gray? maybe?.......who talks about a man in his church that every year comes to him with a list of at least 10 things he's mad about. He sits in his office and listens to the man, even though usually most of them are a bunch o' hooey.....but invariably there's one item on there that is obviously there by God's hand. And each time after that meeting he has something he has to confess.

I think we need to look at criticisms with more of that heart. I know I do, too.

 

[tinytim]

Can I give you a list of 10 things I am mad about? lol

 

[bapmom]

:laugh:

Im not sure I could get through all 10!

:godisgood:

 

[John of Japan]

There are to many splinter groups who separate themselves over petty differences.
Fundamentalists do not separate themselves from the UFO's(ultra-fundamentalist-onlyists).
The better minds in the fundamentalist movement are not writing and getting published.
There are not as many fundamentalist publishers today as there were 50 years ago.
There are no clearcut highly visable fundamentalist evangelists in public view today.
What are your views?:godisgood:

Hi, POB.

You have some excellent points, but I have somewhat of a different view. All in all, I'm optimistic.

(1) I believe the splinter groups are inevitable as the movement grows--and it has grown much in 50 years. Some of those splinter groups are admittedly nasty, but I view that as growth pains.
(2) Much of the growth is in the IFB movement, which I estimate as at least 10,000 churches. (Our mission board alone lists 6000 churches, and that would not include very many BBF churches.) There were far, far fewer IFB churches 50 years ago.
(3) Judging from my library, I believe that there are many more authors and many more publishers than 50 years ago--but very few publishers of any size or authors that are widely read. The good news is, though, that fundamentalists have learned about quality. Some of the stuff published 30 years ago is very poorly printed and bound, but recent offerings look snazzy--even when put out by a pastor with his own one-horse publisher.
(4) One factor influencing #3 is that there are more publishers and authors among the SBC and other evangelical groups that are printing good, Biblical, conservative stuff. As an example, think of Jay Adams in the counseling field.
(5) I agree with you completely about the lack of strong, widely used evangelists nowadays. May God raise some up. On the other hand, there are good men with low profiles like my mother's cousins, Bill and Pete Rice. They don't make much of a fuss, but Bill has helped the wide spread of deaf ministries around the world, and Pete has an international ministry that few hear about, sometimes seeing 1000s saved in Latin American and African campaigns.
(6) I see a great fundamentalist missions movement today that didn't exist 50 years ago, when fundamentalists were still recovering from losing the mission boards in the mainline denominations. Now, "mainline" mission boards have shrunk drastically and fundamental boards have grown by leaps and bounds.

My two yen worth!

God bless.

John

 

[John of Japan]

By some of the finer minds I refer to the professors in Independant Fundamental Bible Baptist colleges and seminaries writing commentaries,books on Bible Doctrine, Books on Theology or Theoligical studies...i.e..hermeneutics,apologetics,social customs in Bible times.:godisgood:

Bill, the problem here is that our professors don't have time to research and write, since they often have to teach a full load and then sometimes even work a job on the side to make ends meet. Meanwhile, the big time evangelical seminaries pay their profs better and give them a lighter load of teaching so they can write. Hopefully this will improve as the movement grows.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

You all are welcome to make your lists known on this thread. discussion and free flow of ideas is what this thread is all about.

Joj I was going to post on your thread but by the time I read all the way through it, it had been closed down. Just a comment: Anybody who has not spent much time in the far east has no idea how much the chinese alphabet(which is mainly word pictures) influences the languages of other countries. On top of that there are over 50 dialects of chinese.You have taken on a truly monumental task. If you had'nt before you are certainly learning now how to eat an elephant.As always I keep you in my daily prayers.

I am always glad to know about new publishers and new good solid authors.:godisgood:

 

[gb93433]

The better minds in the fundamentalist movement are not writing and getting published.

That is because people are reading less and less books. Books have become more expensive. The books which are selling are the self help type, powder puff, make me feel good types. Just go to the reference section in any Christian bookstore and notice how few there are compared to the other things. Go into any church and notice who is studying the Bible. Some deniminations used to have church courses now people hardly know anything much. Professors at seminaries and Bible schools will tell you that the knowledge of the Bible among students entering has continually gone down over the years.

 

[gb93433]

I am always glad to know about new publishers and new good solid authors.

eisenbrauns.com has a lot of excellent books. That company started because of a lack of good books.

 

[MrJim]

Maybe it's all been written already? Millions of pages are already printed-maybe there's plenty of reading already and not much new to add?

 

[gb93433]

Maybe it's all been written already? Millions of pages are already printed-maybe there's plenty of reading already and not much new to add?

The great thing is how many archaeological discoveries have come about in the past 30 years or so which give credibility to the Bible. I think we are living in great times when we have so many reasons for our faith based on actual tangible evidence.

 

[John of Japan]

You all are welcome to make your lists known on this thread. discussion and free flow of ideas is what this thread is all about.

Joj I was going to post on your thread but by the time I read all the way through it, it had been closed down. Just a comment: Anybody who has not spent much time in the far east has no idea how much the chinese alphabet(which is mainly word pictures) influences the languages of other countries. On top of that there are over 50 dialects of chinese.You have taken on a truly monumental task. If you had'nt before you are certainly learning now how to eat an elephant.As always I keep you in my daily prayers.

Thanks for the prayers, Bill. You're right about Chinese. In Japanese we use several thousand of the Chinese characters. Hopefully the elephant won't give me indigestion!

I am always glad to know about new publishers and new good solid authors.

One example of what I mean is that Central Seminary printed a snazzy looking book in Reclaiming Authentic Fundamentalism by Douglas McLachlan. The Bill Rice Ranch prints quite a few nowadays too.

 

[Ed Edwards]

O.P. by Plain Old Bill: //Fundamentalists do not separate
themselves from the UFO's(ultra-fundamentalist-onlyists).//

THE FUNDAMENTALIST PHENOMENON, Second Edition:

//4. Elevation of minor issues. Because of our
resistance to the corrupting influence of society,
we tend to elevate minor issues
into a place of focus and attention that often
neglects minor issues. //

The two 'troubles' are very similiar.

 

[Pipedude]

THE FUNDAMENTALIST PHENOMENON, Second Edition:

Keep 'em coming, Ed. Although I didn't agree with the Falwell perspective back when the dispute was occurring, any well-intentioned criticism is worth discussing.

 

[Mexdeaf]

IMHO the problem with fundamentalism is that many times the focus is on the 'fundamentals' (or what we define them to be) rather than on God himself.

 

[Ed Edwards]

IMHO the problem with fundamentalism
is that many times the focus is on the 'fundamentals'
(or what we define them to be) rather than on God himself.

Is that possible?

The fundamentals of traditional fundamentalism:

1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
2. the deity of Christ (including His virgin birth)
3. the substitutionary atonement of Christ's death
4. the literal resurrection of Christ from the dead
5. the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent

Christ is mentioned in each statement save the
first one. The 'scripture' is full of God & Christ.