The True Israel....Shadow and Reality

[Iconoclast]

In a recent thread Agedman and I began to interact on this topic...let's see where it goes...here was the discussion points-

These first two posts are from the other thread.....post #3 will begin this threads response and interaction

Icon, lets explore a bit of differences between us.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post

The church does not "replace anything". It is an expansion and completion of God's eternal purpose which He has purposed in Christ Jesus the Lord.


Jesus is the "True Israel".....Ot Israel was but a shadow of the true.

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn
In the above passage, you are using it to show that Jesus was Israel because you align it with the son.

I do not.

Jesus was the "ONLY BEGOTTEN" son, but not the only son, and Israel (political, social, religious) was/is a son just as believers are heirs "according to the promise."

Then you take the following as supporting proof, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
4 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
However, if the first statement is incorrect (Israel is Jesus) then the statement above is misapplied, too.

I have no problem with the account given in the Scriptures of Jesus being taken to Egypt, nor of his being called out of Egypt by the direct decree of God. Just not that Israel and Jesus are the same person.

God said, "If my people, who are called by my name..." Using your example, Jesus is a people (plural) and not a person (singular).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
The True Exodus...

Isa 49:1-8.....
Hebrews 2-12.....

He is the "true Tabernacle" true manna"etc.....All saints for all time are found in Him on the last day.

Agreed, we are found IN him, but not Him. We are joint heirs, not replacement parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
All Believers before Israel was a nation
All believing Israelites in the ot.
All the elect remnant of the 1st century israelites
All the gentiles grafted in.
All the elect sheep for all time .
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 , there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The Galatians quote is a wonderful passage that certainly puts the believers as grafted into the Abraham promise. But it does not replace what Paul states in Romans as I post below:

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Clearly, by looking at the bold and underlined parts, Paul shows that the political, social, religious Israel WILL be saved and the believers joined to the everlasting covenant promise made to Abraham.

There is only ONE time that can be accomplished according to the Scriptures. It must take place in the Millennium when Christ literally rules this earth with a rod of iron.

The typical a-mil position obliges a rejection of the view of the church being grafted into the root in which Israel is still an integral part. Yet when one reads the sermon on the mount, in which Christ delivered to the Jews, there can be no doubt the political/social/religious Israel will be saved with believers grafted in, too.

 

[Iconoclast]

While responding you went on:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
Rm.....hold onto to it...do not over think...I am speaking plainly....watch-
Jesus is the promised seed. singular...He alone

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Any and all of the elect are raised up.....as children of the PROMISE.
Not as physical birth....but Spiritual birth Jew/Gentile raised up together in Jesus....

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.



They thought physical birth was what got them into the Kingdom...they were wrong as here;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Jesus defines it for us!


Spirit Baptism places us in Saving Union with Christ...the promised seed...

so we He died, we died in Him, as He is raised, we are raised...that is a believers position......IN CHRIST.....the promised seed.

There is no other place of refuge...He is our City of Refuge, He is the ARK,The High Priest, The Manna, He is ALL IN ALL...LORD OF ALL.

There is absolutely nothing of significance in which we would disagree. I would point out that the "branches broken off" mentioned by Paul in Romans, very well could be the religious rulers of that day who without shame rose up against Christ. But that is pure speculation on my part.

I would be a bit careful about "the promised seed" part, for I don't recall the Scriptures ever referring to Christ as a seed in that manner (though I may be mistaken).

Christ is referred to as "the first fruits." (1 Cor. 15)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
You are welcome We should be about this...[seeking truth] rather than what else takes place in here Even if someone holds something else, clarification is always in order, so if you believe different, at least you know why and what you reject ...and why biblically you reject it.

Clarification is given , because no one attacked anyone personally. Agedman was trying to connect the dots I posted, but I did not give enough of an explanation.....I offered a second post that might help more.
I have been working on this teaching or understanding of Redemptive History for years now,and find it helpful and instructive, in evangelism.

Many persons are unchurched and see the world as the mess that it is , with violence and evil. Explaining the elements of the history of redemption in a condensed form gives meaning to it all and centers on the blood of the cross.

This is the only hope for the lost and dying world.

Absolutely!!!!

There is no doubt that the blood sacrifice of the Cross of Christ is the only redemption available.

No one, from Adam to the last man standing when the world ends and time is no more can claim to be redeemed in any other manor but by the direct work of Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast

Icon, lets explore a bit of differences between us.

Okay...we can do this.Glad we start off with many things we can agree on:wavey:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post

The church does not "replace anything". It is an expansion and completion of God's eternal purpose which He has purposed in Christ Jesus the Lord.


Jesus is the "True Israel".....Ot Israel was but a shadow of the true.

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn
In the above passage, you are using it to show that Jesus was Israel because you align it with the son.

Then you take the following as supporting proof, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
4 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

However, if the first statement is incorrect (Israel is Jesus) then the statement above is misapplied, too.

I do not believe Israel equals Jesus.I think there is much more to it!

Let me start this way; The reality is in heaven-

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

1]the patterns of the things in the heavens

2]the heavenly things themselves

3]the heavenly things themselves

4]which were figures of the true

This language in Hebrews 9 speaks about the unseen but eternal reality...

That which was upon earth....was the shadow.

So now in Ex4:22-

In what way could the nation be described as a Son???

1] Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

2] Let my son go, that he may serve me:

Agedman....why was this language used in describing Israel to Pharoah?

How can a nation be described as a Son??


In what way was the Covenant Son to serve God?

 

[Iconoclast]

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

However, if the first statement is incorrect (Israel is Jesus) then the statement above is misapplied, too.

I see this passage speaking of the REAL EXODUS.

Moses,Pharoah, Israelites, Egyptians.....were part of the first Exodus.It really happened as recorded in scripture.

I believe it happened and was recorded ,for our learning-

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


I believe these are linked in the NT in the book of Hebrews,as well as the Mt 2 passage.


3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


also at the transfiguration:
30 And lo, two men were speaking together with him, who were Moses and Elijah,

31 who having appeared in glory, spake of his outgoing that he was about to fulfil in Jerusalem,...........................................His Exodus

 

[Iconoclast]

The Galatians quote is a wonderful passage that certainly puts the believers as grafted into the Abraham promise. But it does not replace what Paul states in Romans as I post below:

Yes I know what you are saying.Paul in addressing the question of Israel....what happened to them? Why are gentiles coming to believe in the God of Abraham ,Issac, Jacob ?

he had to address them, because they were first given the oracles of God,and that almost exclusively.....So he is both offering the God given explanation, but also showing how God is fulfilling the promises....NOW.

This is mostly where are differences will manifest.

Agedman.....when I was dispensational/premill....I was taught that was the only true teaching.I did not really give these other views a good and honest read.

When i was in the frame of mind and under it's teaching...whenever I saw the quotes offered by Paul...in Romans 9-15.....I automatically put them off as ...FUTURE....for the millennial Kingdom on Earth. It was never even considered that it was a present reality. That was to "spiritualize " the passages. That was to keep separate Israel/Church. One a heavenly people, the other an earthly people.

That scheme seeks to give an answer to all the verses.In a way...it does.
Jesus wins.So I never thought to question it...at first.
Now I have found that other christians ,also have sought to answer all the verses ,and they also answer all the verses...Jesus still wins! Only they speak of the current rule and reign from the Heavenly Jerusalem...right now.
So as you are indicating a future "earthly "reign, on earthly Jerusalem..we will of course differ.

 

[Iconoclast]

here it is described in a study called the God with us...by Kit Culver:

Agedman...this study has over 400 pages.....so I skimmed through and offered a sample///broken up into bite size segments......as time permits, you can read, enjoy,and interact with them...

On sermonaudio. this is a 62 message series preached by Kit Culver...out in Colorado...
the series was God with Us....the recovery of sacred space/


Like the creational kingdom centered in Eden, the Israelite kingdom was
preparatory and promissory. It portrayed and represented in a typological
way God’s true and ultimate kingdom, but for that very reason was not
that kingdom. The creational kingdom had God exercising His sovereign
rule through man, the image-son, and so it was to be with the Israelite
kingdom. In a sense, Israel’s judges had performed that intermediary
function during the early centuries of the theocracy (ref. again 1 Samuel
8:4-6), but the emergence of a king was a necessary step in the history of
Israel if the Israelite theocracy were to fulfill its typological role.
This is perhaps most evident in the intimate connection the Scripture
makes between David and Jesus Christ. David is the focal point of the
royal aspect of Old Testament messianism, and David’s typological
contribution as king over the covenant household obviously depended
upon the existence of the monarchy. Without a monarchy in Israel there
could be no David, and without such a king or kingdom there could be no
valid typological correspondence between Israel as covenant kingdom and
the true kingdom as realized in Jesus Christ.


and here:
But God’s promise of a house also meant that He would establish this
son’s throne and kingdom forever (7:13). In this way Yahweh would grant
to David an everlasting dominion (cf. 7:13, 16). Thus the covenant’s
central promise of an enduring house for David – as it regarded both
dynasty and dominion – was bound up in this promised descendent.
2) At the same time, David’s desire to build a house for the Lord would not
go unsatisfied. The same son in whom God would build David’s house
would, in turn, build a house for Yahweh (v. 13a). This declaration, too, is
layered with multiple meanings. First and most obvious is its reference to
Solomon’s later work of building the Lord’s temple in Jerusalem (cf. 1
Chronicles 28:1-10 with 1 Kings 5:1-5; 2 Chronicles 6:1-11). But just as
David’s “house” involved both dynasty and dominion, so it was to be with
Yahweh’s house.


Though the covenant itself was not specific in this
regard, David understood that God’s promise looked ultimately to the
distant future (7:18-19), and therefore to a seed beyond Solomon (ref.
Acts 2:22-31) and, by implication, to a house beyond the Jerusalem temple
(cf. Zechariah 6:9-15; 1 Peter 2:1-10; Revelation 21:1ff).

 

[Iconoclast]

here is some more:

The Lord would establish
David’s house and throne and set his son over his kingdom just as the covenant promised,
but that kingdom was to be of an entirely different sort than the Israelite theocracy.
a. First of all, the prophets proclaimed it to be an everlasting kingdom, just as
Yahweh Himself had indicated in His covenant with David (2 Samuel 7:12-16). It
would be unending precisely because it wouldn’t depend in any way on its
subjects for either its institution or its continuance. Like its predecessor, this
kingdom would be governed by a covenant defining the relationship between
Yahweh and His people, but this time the conformity of the sons of the kingdom
would be absolute since the demands of sonship would be met in them rather than
by them. This kingdom would endure forever because of the unfailing
righteousness of its citizens – the righteousness of the Lord Himself given to
them (cf. Isaiah 32:1-18, 54:1-56:8, 59:1-60:22; Jeremiah 31:31-40, 32:36-41;
Ezekiel 37:15-28, 43:1-9; Daniel 2:1-45, 7:9-28; Joel 3:1-21; Micah 4:1-8; etc.).
b. So also the revelation of the coming Davidic king showed the promised kingdom
to be distinct from the Israelite theocracy. The cursing of David’s dynasty pointed
to this truth, but the prophets made it explicit by revealing that this Seed would
rule over Yahweh’s kingdom as a king-priest. The structure of the theocracy had
established an unbridgeable separation between Israel’s kings and priests, so that
the conjoining of those offices in one man indicated a new covenant and therefore
a new kind of kingdom (cf. Psalm 110; Zechariah 6:9-15; Hebrews 5:1-9:15).

 

[Iconoclast]

Agedman,

I am not trying to bury you with quotes,lol...I am just skimming through and offering up OT verses with a NT reality applied to them...from a heavenly fulfillment and reign, here on earth....

First Adam fails....last Adam does not

First Exodus...under Moses....Moses gives way to joshua, looking for an earthly promised land....
The true Exodus...In Jesus leads captivity Captive into the eternal state.
Israel as Covenant Son fails.....Jesus as the SERVANT of the Lord, the Elect Servant does not fail.

When considered within the broader Old Testament revelation, the house and
throne promised to David are explicitly shown to transcend Israelite categories
and substance and assume cosmic proportions. For the son in whom David’s
house, throne and kingdom were to be established is the same individual through
whom Yahweh would bring about the comprehensive cataclysm of a new creation
(cf. Isaiah 11:1-9 with 65:1-66:23; also Hosea 2:1-3:5 and Amos 9:11-15).

 

[Iconoclast]

Here we come to the incarnation:

The Emergent Kingdom – The Coming of Immanuel
John was appointed by the Lord to prepare Israel for the coming of the long-awaited kingdom.
And at the heart of that kingdom was the profound reality of theophany: The uniform prophetic
message was that Yahweh Himself would inaugurate His kingdom in connection with His own
personal presence in the world. The promise of the kingdom was the promise of Immanuel –
“God with us” – and this theme is most prevalent in Isaiah’s prophecy (cf. 7:1-12:6, 19:18-25,
25:1-27:13, 32:1-20, 40:1-11, 42:1-9, 49:1-13, 59:1-20, etc.).
In particular, Isaiah associated the eschatological coming of Yahweh with the coming of His
Servant. Importantly, this Servant is presented in unique terms as both the fulfillment of Israel
(Isaiah 49:1ff) and the presence of Yahweh (cf. Isaiah 40:1-11 with 42:1-16; also Zechariah
2:10-11). In this way the text indirectly indicates that, in this one individual, there is some sort of
conjoining of the covenant Father and son; both parties to the covenant are represented in him.
While Christians commonly recognize that the Isaianic “Servant of the Lord” represents Yahweh
Himself in His coming to inaugurate His kingdom, it is far less common for them to find in this
individual the fulfillment of Israel, Yahweh’s covenant son. The result is that they miss a crucial
aspect of Christ’s identity and role as the God-Man.

 

[Iconoclast]

The
Lord was going to usher in His kingdom by defeating the enemies who had taken
His sons captive, thereby liberating them and taking them to Himself to be with
Him in His dwelling place. The first Exodus was to find its own fulfillment in a
second Exodus (Isaiah 51:1-11; cf. 11:1-16).

The fact that the Servant represents both parties to Israel’s covenant is
foundational to properly interacting with Isaiah’s presentation of Him. First of all,
the Servant is Yahweh’s true Israel, and the significance of this becomes evident
when the biblical idea of “Israel” is unfolded.
- The immediate inclination is to think of Israel as a national, ethnic people,
but it is first and foremost a biblical concept. Israel found its first
expression in a single individual, and only later in the corporate body
descended from him. As a concept, “Israel” principally embodies the ideas
of seed of Abraham, son of God, servant of Yahweh, disciple and witness.
The latter three, especially, come to the forefront in Isaiah’s prophecy.

From the vantage point of the Fall, it meant the undoing of the curse; it
meant the reconciliation of Creator-Father and estranged image-son. In its
calling as Abraham’s seed, the nation of Israel was to fulfill this promise
of reconciliation. Israel was Yahweh’s servant (Isaiah 41:8-9, 44:1-2, 21),
set apart as His disciple to learn of Him through devoted faithfulness to
the covenant by which He revealed Himself (42:18-24). By that life of
faithfulness, in turn, the servant-son would bear witness to the divine
Father to the surrounding nations (Isaiah 43:10-15, 44:6-8).[/QUOTE]

 

[Iconoclast]

Satisfying the obligations of both parties, the Servant effectively embodied the covenant
in Himself (42:1-7, 49:8-9). He would be Israel on behalf of Israel, but as the Lord
Redeemer He would accomplish Yahweh’s purpose to redeem and recover to Himself all
things (cf. Isaiah 49:5-6, 54:1-17; also Ephesians 1:7-10, 2:11-3:12; Colossians 1:19-20).

Even before the tragedy of the Fall, God revealed that He intended intimate connection between
Himself and His creation. Specifically, His presence and rule were to be administered through
His image-bearer; man was to serve as the interface between the divine Creator and the rest of
His creation. But this work of administration would not be the result of a detached delegation of
authority. Adam and his descendents were to rule the earth as God’s image-son; divine dominion
was to be expressed in the context of divine-human communion.

The promise of Yahweh’s kingdom was the promise of His recovery of sacred space, and, within
the Israelite context, sacred space was symbolized in Israel’s temple in Jerusalem. This is the
reason the prophetic witness to the kingdom has a primary focal point in the temple concept. In
that day the mountain of the Lord – symbolic of His dwelling place (Exodus 15:17) – would be
the greatest of all the mountains (Isaiah 2:1-3; Zechariah 8:1-3), rising and expanding to fill the
whole earth (Daniel 2:31-35, 44-45; cf. also Isaiah 11:9). So Jerusalem (Zion) – the Lord’s
symbolic throne – would be the center of the earth with all the nations and peoples coming into it
(ref. again Isaiah 2:1-3, also 51:1-11, 62:1-12, 66:19-20 with Jeremiah 3:14-17, 31:1-6; Micah
4:1-7; Zechariah 8:19-23). And more narrowly, that great day would see the erecting of the
Lord’s true temple with His glory filling His sanctuary forever (ref. Ezekiel 40-47, esp. 43:1-5
and 44:1-4; also Haggai 2:1-9; Zechariah 6:9-15).

...........

 

[Iconoclast]

Agedman
In speaking of rom11...you said:

Quote:
There is only ONE time that can be accomplished according to the Scriptures. It must take place in the Millennium when Christ literally rules this earth with a rod of iron.

Read the same passages but this time read them as if they are being fulfilled now as the gospel goes worldwide.....with Christ ruling now in the midst of His enemies.

In rev20...it says they live and reign with Christ...1000yrs....where does it say it is on the earth and not from the heavenly Jerusalem?

 

[convicted1]

Brother, keep up the good job. You're winning this debate hands down. :wavey: :flower: :love2:

 

[Iconoclast]

Brother, keep up the good job. You're winning this debate hands down.

:wavey: Willis....I was not sure anyone was reading this,haha.

I am not so much even debating this...it is more, thinking or posting out loud:thumbs:

I am working on this theme and have been for awhile now.I am open to imput.
I emailed this pastor and he sent me 400 pgs of notes.....tons of verses and ideas about the reality of the Kingdom. God restoring man as a true image -bearer.....and the recovery of what many call Sacred Space...where we commune with God.

When I get a hold of notes like this.....I try and consider them like the frame of a house.Then I seek to fill in and expand it scripturally.

Theology can get deep sometimes. I set it out and simplify it when i can, so my gospel witness will be full of scripture ,and biblical theology.

I believe that we need an answer for whoever God brings into our path....
young ,old, rich, poor, educated ,simple.

When I was first saved ...I got a prophecy sweet tooth[pre-mill] , I spent much time working through many books on it....many verses...

Looking back...it hindered my growth some....much of it was repetition.

I study Hebrews now, more than any other book...although Romans and Ephesians are with me all the time also.Hebrews describes our Lord in detail. Along with the glimpses of Him reigning now from the book of revelation, we can go forth confidently to the unsaved and speak to them about a Saviour who will save to the uttermost, them who come unto Him.

Continue to grow in grace,my brother:thumbs:

 

[percho]

Agedman
In speaking of rom11...you said:



Read the same passages but this time read them as if they are being fulfilled now as the gospel goes worldwide.....with Christ ruling now in the midst of His enemies.

In rev20...it says they live and reign with Christ...1000yrs....where does it say it is on the earth and not from the heavenly Jerusalem?

I am going to read however a little hard to determine who said what. Need to take my time.

In the mean time what do you do with these verses?

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Acts 2:33-35

Also the about thirty three years Jesus walked the earth what was he anointed to do? See Luke 4:18,19 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. Also Acts 10:36-38 I will not paste basically the same.

Is this the anointing of the Prophet?

Was he a priest at this time?

Is Jesus the Christ presently acting as a prophet? Priest?

Give your thoughts concerning Luke 19:11,12,15 relative to Daniel 2:34.35.39
where I understand the stone to be the kingdom of God on the earth. Also Daniel 7:13,14

 

[Iconoclast]

percho

I am going to read however a little hard to determine who said what. Need to take my time

.

take your time and enjoy the verses....It is all good! the first two posts were from another thread...In post 3 i started a response.
This is a big topic with much to consider,but well worth the time.

In the mean time what do you do with these verses?

you have picked some really good ones,lets look-

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Acts 2:33-35

I now enjoy these verses fully.Peter is quoting from psalm 110.....which is quoted 6 times in the NT....
It speaks of Jesus ruling in the ...midst of His enemies.....

Jesus taught similar things in Lk 19...a kingdom parable;
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.


In psalm 110 it reads this way;
2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Also the about thirty three years Jesus walked the earth what was he anointed to do? See Luke 4:18,19 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. Also Acts 10:36-38 I will not paste basically the same.

The second half of Isa...40-66 is the gospel in the OT. much truth for us is right there.....many of the passages are spoken of as now fulfilled.

Is this the anointing of the Prophet?

Was he a priest at this time?

Is Jesus the Christ presently acting as a prophet? Priest?

Yes...Jesus is the Prophet, Priest, and King.....
he is the greater than Moses-

15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

and in zech 6:
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both

Zechariah revealed further that that human in gathering
involved the convergence of men from the four corners of the earth to
contribute to the Davidic Branch’s work of constructing the Lord’s
sanctuary – a holy and enduring dwelling that He would build for Yahweh
as His priest-king (6:9-15).

Thus the vision looks prophetically to the building of Yahweh’s true
sanctuary by His regal and priestly Servant who is the Branch of David
(cf. 3:1-6 with 6:9-15). And

As it had been in the first creation, the prophets revealed that this work of
bringing forth life into a “dead” world was to be accomplished by the
Lord’s Spirit. At the appointed time, the Spirit would breathe life, not only
into the dead bones of the house of Israel (Ezekiel 37:1-14; cf. 36:16-29),
but the whole of Adam’s dead race (Joel 2:21-32; Micah 4:1-7). More than
that, He would renew the estranged and cursed creation in its entirety;
what had been portrayed in the abundant splendor of Eden would be
realized in consummate perfection (cf. Isaiah 32:9-20, 35:1-10).

Give your thoughts concerning Luke 19:11,12,15 relative to Daniel 2:34.35.39
where I understand the stone to be the kingdom of God on the earth. Also Daniel 7:13,14

Yes...you are thinking solid on this......Daniel 2 speaks of the everlasting Kingdom being set up....Dan 7.....is the view of
Jesus ascension to the throne as he ascended in Acts 1.....
the kingdom parable in Lk. 19...speaks of the time from the ascension to the last day.....it implies a long time when combined with other portions of scripture...by itself you cannot stretch it that far, but i can see where it fits with many of the other kingdom parables

Here are 4 sermons that speak of Our Lord as the Servant of The lord from Isa...that speak of His preparation-

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=11905165947

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=1190517213

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=11905171145

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=11905174020

There is so much to be said about these verses, however I believe the Spirit of God gave this pastor special insight in opening up these verses...I think he got it right.....enjoy:wavey::thumbs:

The prophets proclaimed that the “life” that is comprehensive renewal
would be effected by the life-giving power of God’s Spirit, but they also
associated His presence and renewing work with the coming of the Lord’s
Servant, the Davidic “Branch.” Renewal had its goal in reconciliation.
- Thus the prophets revealed first that the Spirit would accomplish
His work in and through His indwelling presence in David’s Son
(Isaiah 11:1-11, 42:1-7, 6:1-11). That One was to be preeminently
the “man of the Spirit,” embodying in Himself what God intended
for His image-bearers. In the Spirit-filled Servant the prophets
disclosed Yahweh’s appointed destiny for the human race.
- But the prophetic connection between the Servant and God’s Spirit
wasn’t simply one of indwelling; the Spirit’s work of renewal was
to stand upon the Servant’s work of redemption. By His indwelling
presence, the Spirit would empower the Branch to accomplish the
redemptive work for which Yahweh was sending Him. Isaiah
prophesied that, anointed with the Lord’s Spirit, the Servant would
proclaim the great Jubilee – the “favorable year of the Lord” that is
the full release of all captivity (61:1-11). But He would do so by
virtue of His accomplishment, in the power of the same Spirit, of
God’s promised redemption and recovery (48:16-49:13, 59:1-21).

 

[Iconoclast]

Agedman,

Icon, lets explore a bit of differences between us.

Ok.....so agedman...what do you think?