The Truth about the RCC

[Eliyahu]

The Catholic body of the Magisterium might not be a bad thing in the Protestant world come to think of it. Thankfully God understands all these things, as I don't. In some way not so savory people are used to produce Christians in spite of themselves.

What if the torturing and killing come upon to you? Of course it seems that you may concede to RCC doctrines, then you won't have much problem with RCC.

For example I refuse Idolatry, Calling Mary as Mother of God, Purgatory, Papacy, Indulgence, Infant Baptism, Confession to Priests, Clergy System, Prayer to the Dead, Apocrypha, etc.

If I had lived medieval era under RCC, I would have been condemned as a 100% Heretic! Then do I have to be tortured and killed?

Is this what you are saying " God understands" ?

I mentioned the True Christians are different from Reformers (protestants). Do you know that the Baptists were tortured by Protestants in USA?

Read this:

In March 1639, Roger Williams was publicly immersed in baptism, and the first Baptist church of Rhode Island was formed. This is commonly considered the oldest Baptist church in America.
In March 1644, Williams obtained a charter from the king of England to establish Rhode Island.
Williams wrote “The Bloody Tenet of Persecution for Cause of Conscience,” in which he boldly defended liberty of conscience.
Though slanders have been heaped upon Roger Williams by various historians, many learned Baptist writers (as well as others) have set the record straight. See the histories of Thomas Armitage and David Benedict, for example. These are in the Fundamental Baptist CD-ROM Library, available from Way of Life Literature.
In 1643, Lady Deborah Moody, who owned a 400-acre farm in the town of Swampscott, was forced to move to Long Island, New York, to live among the Dutch in order to escape persecution in Massachusetts. Her “crime” was that she denied infant baptism.
The first law against the Baptists in America was made in Massachusetts in November 1644. The law threatened severe punishments against Anabaptists. That year, Thomas Painter was whipped for denying infant baptism.
In February 1646, William Witter and John Wood of Lynn were publicly rebuked and fined for denying infant baptism. John Spur was fined in July 1651 for the same “crime.”
In 1651, some Baptists were arrested and one was brutally whipped in Massachusetts.
The names of those arrested were John Clark, Obadiah Holmes, and John Crandal.
They were from a Baptist church in Newport, Rhode Island, and were visiting in the home of the aforementioned William Witter, an elderly Christian brother in Lynn, Massachusetts. At the time, there were no Baptist churches in Massachusetts.
On Sunday, they conducted a religious service in Witter’s home; and while Mr. Clark was preaching on the text of Revelation 3:10, two constables burst into the house, arrested them, and took them to the prison in Boston.
Holmes was beaten with 30 strokes of a three-corded whip. In a letter to a Baptist church in England, Holmes recounted the Lord’s mercy in strengthening him during this trial:

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/protestant-persecutions.html

The ugly people whom you mentioned as Protestants in North America may be the people who persecuted the above mentioned people.
Those so-called " Protestants" are usually the non-Baptists, because the people refused the true Baptism usually starts from Disobedience while Baptists start the life after salvation with the Obedience to Baptism.

I know this because even Calvin himself has been criticized very much. Calvin's life as the leader in Geneva may be excused for many killings of witches, but his involvement in the death of Servetus can hardly be exonerated. http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm
http://www.gospeltruth.net/heresy/heresy_chap2.htm

What about Martin Luther?
http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

Actually, 2 years after this writing by Luther, there was a mob against Jews in Germany, and thousands of Jews were killed.

I don't condone any Protestants either. We must condemn any violence in the name of Jesus Christ. Either such killings done by Pope of Geneva or Pope of Rome must be condemned.

The True Christians always have been the victims by RCC or Reformers or Muslims.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. ( Mt 7:16)

 

[Eliyahu]

Summary of the above mentioned article by Luther:


“The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows, seven times higher than ordinary thieves.”
[FONT=바탕] [/FONT]
“We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them.”
[FONT=바탕] [/FONT]

“If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the river Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words, ‘I baptize thee in the name of Abraham.’”

 

[mes228]

Baptist

Good for you! I no longer have the confidence that you espouse in the Baptist being perfect, or the true Church. In fact I'm pretty sure that we (or they) are very much wrong in some areas. Especially as taught in many local Baptist churches. The SBC
is quite well balanced in presenting Baptist doctrine and pretty much avoids gross error and heresy. Not so local Pastors, or Teachers, much error comes through their lips to the minds of those taught. How else do you explain the Baptist feeling that they are always right (grin)?? There are Baptist preachers that are as bad as any Pope in the burdens placed on their congregation's. And errors taught as the only truth, are grievous no matter who teaches them. Much of the doctrine thats true, and common to all Christian denominations, was inherited through the Catholic church. That does not make me Catholic, it just makes me honest. I'm not so quick to condemn the millions that called themselves Catholic through history. When was the last time you saw Catholics or any other Protestants protesting and screaming at fallen soldiers funerals. Sadly the ones doing this are called Baptist. The point being that your personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ might not be un-available even in awful churches and belief systems within Christianity.

 

[Eliyahu]

Much of the doctrine thats true, and common to all Christian denominations, was inherited through the Catholic church. That does not make me Catholic, it just makes me honest. I'm not so quick to condemn the millions that called themselves Catholic through history. When was the last time you saw Catholics or any other Protestants protesting and screaming at fallen soldiers funerals. Sadly the ones doing this are called Baptist. The point being that your personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ might not be un-available even in awful churches and belief systems within Christianity.

I think you are unaware of much of church history. How come we inherited the doctrines from Catholic since we have been objecting to all of RCC doctrines? I already mentioned to you I oppose to Idolatry, Infant Baptism, Purgatory, Clergy System, Papacy, Prayer to the Dead, Mass, Transubstantiation, Extreme Unction, Confession to the Priests, Compulsory Celibacy, Theotokos, Immaculate Conception, Apocrypha, Limbo, etc. Do you think RCC taught me how to object to their doctrines?

Not only myself there are so many people in the world who oppose to those theory of RCC, and in the past we can trace so many people who opposed to such RCC theory. Sometimes it is hard to trace them in the history since RCC exterminated many of them and burnt the writings by them, but from time to time their own writings are discovered as we hear about Bazaar Heraclides for Nestorius and Key of Truth for Paulicians.

Are you talking about the Deity of Jesus Christ? For those of few fundamental teachings, do we need RCC? What about the people during 1 century thru 4th century until RCC emerged?

Moreover, some popes didn't believe the virgin birth of Jesus. Read this article.

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/Popes.html

I know there are many "Catholic Baptists" even among Baptist churches.
Many Baptist churches have the pastors while Bible never suggested any Mono-Pastoral system but there are only 2 offices, namely Elders( also called Overseers) and Deacons. In that aspect many of Baptist churches may be contaminated with the doctrine of Nicolatanes ( Rev 2:6, 15). However, Baptists have been least polluted with human doctrines and paganism. They have been different from any other "Reformed Catholics" such as Presbyterian or Lutheran, differemt from "Reformed Anglican" such as Methodists, and they can be traced back to the Early Church in the Bible eventually in the similitude. They may look as the biggest group of the True Believers in Christ, on the surface. But we believe that there have been all the time true believers throughout the hsitory who kept the commandments of God described in NT. Some of them were called West Deutsche Bruder Gemeinde, Bohemian Bruder Gemeinde, Moravian Gemeinde, Bogomil, Cathari, etc. We know that they had no pastors and refused the Catholicism. They were often called simply Brethren as Jesus commanded in Matt 23:8-11.

Baptists have been different from any other Reformed Catholic Protestants, even though there may have been some apostasy there.

If you believe that there was no true believers who opposed to the RCC doctrines, then you are believing that God didn't fulfil His duty to keep His church and that God failed to protect His church.
Throughout the history, God has preserved His people who opposed to the paganism of RCC, which I mentioned above, and the True believers in Jesus Christ owe nothing to the Roman Catholicism at all.

 

[Eliyahu]

You can see some short summary of the history which reflects many of true believers groups, here:

http://www.bethelbaptistky.com/library/churchhistory/followingthetrailofbelievers.html

http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0547.htm

 

[mes228]

Baptist

Dear me, Elyahu, I apologize to you for repenting. I too was really hard headed in the beliefs I was taught. Sorry, but really believe that God has mercifully led me to where I am now. You do realize that you are pseudo persecuting Catholic's in this thread don't you? I know of no denomination (or Preacher/Pastor) that doesn't have both theological and physical skeletons in the closet. Just suppose for a moment that you are wrong in a few your beliefs. You seem very much set on teaching others what you "know". What then? Does God just not hold you accountable? If you are wrong, are you not in the same boat as those ignorant Christians, of other beliefs. I apologize to people that I encounter on occasion for the things I taught them years ago. Unlike many, I came to realize that I don't know it all. I came to realize that some of what I have been taught was partial truths, and very incomplete. That's why Baptist Seminary's turn out Baptist, and Lutheran Seminary's turn out Lutherans, and Muslim schools turn out Moslem's. We are all pretty much "brain washed" by the religious culture we choose, or were recruited into, or were raised in. Thankfully God can still reach you wherever you are. The truth is, for well over a thousand years sincere, intelligent, godly people have come to other conclusions than yours. Just because you absolutely, sincerely, believe you are correct does not make it so. I suggest you take a sabbatical and study Catholicism. Then order the text books from any Lutheran
Seminary and any Baptist Seminary and just read them. Then order all the text books from any college offering a degree in religion that's not denominational and read those also. I doubt you'll do this as we both know "your right" aren't you. By the way I prayed for you.

 

[Eliyahu]

Dear me, Elyahu, I apologize to you for repenting. I too was really hard headed in the beliefs I was taught. Sorry, but really believe that God has mercifully led me to where I am now. You do realize that you are pseudo persecuting Catholic's in this thread don't you? I know of no denomination (or Preacher/Pastor) that doesn't have both theological and physical skeletons in the closet. Just suppose for a moment that you are wrong in a few your beliefs. You seem very much set on teaching others what you "know". What then? Does God just not hold you accountable? If you are wrong, are you not in the same boat as those ignorant Christians, of other beliefs. I apologize to people that I encounter on occasion for the things I taught them years ago. Unlike many, I came to realize that I don't know it all. I came to realize that some of what I have been taught was partial truths, and very incomplete. That's why Baptist Seminary's turn out Baptist, and Lutheran Seminary's turn out Lutherans, and Muslim schools turn out Moslem's. We are all pretty much "brain washed" by the religious culture we choose, or were recruited into, or were raised in. Thankfully God can still reach you wherever you are. The truth is, for well over a thousand years sincere, intelligent, godly people have come to other conclusions than yours. Just because you absolutely, sincerely, believe you are correct does not make it so. I suggest you take a sabbatical and study Catholicism. Then order the text books from any Lutheran
Seminary and any Baptist Seminary and just read them. Then order all the text books from any college offering a degree in religion that's not denominational and read those also. I doubt you'll do this as we both know "your right" aren't you. By the way I prayed for you.

Thanks for your praying for me, not to follow you but to follow Jesus!
Any belief endangers people to be kept hard-headed some how. Do you think I have to apologize to RCC that I don't follow their Idolatry, Purgatory, Infant Baptism, etc?
How come RCC has so many errors and tortured and killed so many people by condemning them as Heretics? Then do you think those killed have inherited their beliefs from their killers? I would rather imagine such inheritance from the Eastern Church of Armenia where the Paulicians were properous.
True believers have often avoided any book of doctrines because they believed the Bible is perfect and enough and any book of doctrines would have caused many confusion and mistakes if they had. Therefore even today, we don't have any manual or catechism because we believe that the Bible is enough. We don't have any Seminary to teach the students because we believe the church is enough for the people to learn from. We believe that there have been millions of believers who have been faithful with the Bible teachings, avoding the mistakes and errors of RCC, throughout the ages. Otherwise, we have to presume that the Holy Spirit was lazy in helping to build up His church, and that God is not trustworthy but yileded to all the paganism of RCC, and that RCC is beyond the control of God.

Which one do you believe or agree to among the following doctrines or practices of Roman Catholic?

- Salvation by Grace + Works
- Salvation by baptism ( Baptismal Regeneration)
- Infant Baptism ( Unbelievers Baptism bringing the unbelievers into the church)
- Baptism by sprinkling ( Pagan holy water dropped on the forehead) which doesn’t teach the burial of old person and resurrection with Jesus Christ.
- Idol making for Mary or Joseph or Jesus
- Idol worshipping for those statues
- Immaculate Conception of Mary
- Perpetual Virginity of Mary
- Assumption : Ascension of Mary
- Theotokos : calling Mary Mother of God, meaning God the Son of Mary.
- Mary as Mother of Church
- Queen of Heaven
- Clergy system with hierarchy
- Compulsory Celibacy
- Confession to the Priests
- Papacy
- Papal infallibility
- Whorish Tradition of so-called holy tradition
- No Salvation outside Roman Catholic Church
- Purgatory
- Limbo
- Mass which is ever asking forgiveness of the sins without bringing the Gospel that such sins were already forgiven at the Cross.
- Transubstantiation ( Magic performance by Catholic Priests)
- Extreme Unction after death
- Prayer to the Dead
- Prayer thru the Dead
-Prayer for the Dead
- Prayer to Mary
-Pray with Rosario
- all the signs of pagan origin such as ankh cross, mark of IHS, threefold hats for the pope, etc.
- Chemarim costumes ( Black costumes used for Idol worshipping priests)
- Crusade
- Inquisition
- Indulgence

Which product among the above do you like the most ? I will refute it for you before you buy it.

RCC has never been the True Church of God, nevertheless, do I have to believe that True believers learned a lot from the pagan religion of Rome full of above mentioned paganism?

 

[BobRyan]

The point I wanted to make was there is enough evil deeds to go around. It's not just a Catholic thing. It's a human thing.

Indeed Hitler, the persecution of saints by the RCC, Stalin etc all bad stuff.

But the ISSUE is that the RCC STILL claims to have done all that WITHOUT error in morals or doctrine!

THAT is innexcusible given our years of having left the dark ages!

As for Catholics still believing that some should be held accountable for what they preach/teach. I suspect God does and at times I do too. Those poor folk that followed Jim Jones south may have been better off if he had perished earlier (not to speak of Joseph Smith).

However again you miss the point. The baptist Jim Jones was in error - but it is EASY to see that his was not "Baptist policy" and we find NO baptist leaderhip today claiming that Jim Jones' actions were "morally and doctrinally without error".

The Catholic body of the Magisterium might not be a bad thing in the Protestant world come to think of it.

That is another misunderstanding. ALL Christian groups DO have their own "Magesterium" just like the RCC. The only difference is that the "congregational" groups limit their magesterium to the local church level while ALL OTHER non-Catholic groups allow their magesterium oversight of all their congregations.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[mes228]

Baptist

I perceive that it would be of no use to answer the list of Catholic beliefs you list. The truth is I'm a Baptist (though at times I cringe at what some Baptist believe). Instead I will suggest that you do a search for "Catholic Apologetics" or some such topic. Perhaps the Catholic Encyclopedia might do. Read their replies to your questions/position. You may find they are not ignorant as you would suggest. In fact you may find that their position is more scriptural than you think. Then you can be absolutely sure you know what they really teach. Not what you've been told, or think they teach. On the other hand there are beliefs that Baptist hold that no legitimate theologian on earth would teach. Thankfully, interested Baptist can read the "Baptist Faith and Message" published by the SBC and see what is "officially" taught. I might add I'm Baptist and agree 100% with everything I've read in the "Baptist Faith & Message" concerning Baptist "doctrine". The disconnect is between the balanced, scriptural, truths in the BF&M, and what some Baptist believe. Just because a Baptist orator can paint great word pictures, be convincing, and be motivational, and speak with "authority" in his own church doesn't mean it's true. Also doesn't mean he really speaks for God. If in this process if he wanders far from scripture, it does not mean he is sanctioned by God.

 

[D28guy]

mess228,

"The Catholic body of the Magisterium might not be a bad thing in the Protestant world come to think of it."

It would not only be a bad thing, it would be cultic and of the devil.

Take a look at some of the groups who rely on one, or a group of, so called "God protected" truth dispensers for the lowly masses...

The Jehovahs Witnesses (Watchtower)
David Koresh (himself)
The Mormons (Book or Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants)
Jim Jones (himself)
The Catholic Church (Teaching Magesterium)
Christian Science group. (Mary Baker Eddy)

Gods way is for ALL of his believers...clergy and non-clergy alike...to turn to the scriptures alone, with the Holy Spirits guiding, to discern truth. It is a God ordained "checks and balances" system, and it works beautifully, if not perfectly. (since we are all flawed)

Without it error and heresy are free to run rampant and unchecked. As we see in Catholicism. Each successive century the heresy, cultism, paganism, blasphemies and falsehoods are worse that the century before. I'm sure everyone here has seen the "development of doctrine" charts for the Catholic Cult.

Sadly,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Mess228,

"Then you can be absolutely sure you know what they really teach. Not what you've been told, or think they teach. "

I was raised Catholic. Up until I was 25 years old. I know what they teach. The only difference is that since being born again I now know what they REALLY teach.

And there are millions of "ex-Catholics for Jesus"...theres even an organisation by that very name...and THEY know exactly what the Catholic Church really teaches.

Thats why they are "EX" Catholics.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Eliyahu]

I perceive that it would be of no use to answer the list of Catholic beliefs you list. The truth is I'm a Baptist (though at times I cringe at what some Baptist believe). Instead I will suggest that you do a search for "Catholic Apologetics" or some such topic. Perhaps the Catholic Encyclopedia might do. Read their replies to your questions/position. You may find they are not ignorant as you would suggest. In fact you may find that their position is more scriptural than you think. Then you can be absolutely sure you know what they really teach. Not what you've been told, or think they teach. On the other hand there are beliefs that Baptist hold that no legitimate theologian on earth would teach.

The list of Catholic Doctrine was listed for you, not for me, because I know them very well, and have never found any of them scriptural, and moreover, you said Protestant Christians inherited the faith from RCC, then which of RCC doctrine has been transferred to Protestants ? That was the question.
Which of the RCC doctrine do you think is more scriptural than I think? Could you tell me anyone? I will explain it for you.
Haven't you read any of the debate between myself and Pro-RCC people with their apologetics on this board? If not please read the one for " Talking to the Dead", and "This do in remembrance of me"
I know what they are claiming, very well, but I don't accept them because they are not scriptural but just paganism.
So, I find that you don't know very much about the Bible truth, sadly.
Therefore, I would summarize the doctrines of RCC shortly for you as follows:

1) By Transubstantiation,
They confess that they drink Human Blood, and thereby confess that they are cut off from the people of God as they drink the human Blood which was prohibited in Leviticus 17.

2) By Purgatory,
They confess that they don't go to the heaven but to the Purgatory.
We know that no one can get out of there because RCC claims that the almsgiving and the prayers by their descendants can help them to come out of the Purgatory, but the Bible says nothing but the Blood of Jesus can redeem anyone from the sins, appeasing the wrath of God.
So, we are sure that RCC people will remain in the Inferno ( Lake of Fire) forever.

3) Church built upon Peter and Tradition.
They confess that their churches are built upon the human being Peter and the human traditions, not on the Rock of Salvation, Jesus Christ ( 1 Cor 3:11)
So, they are confessing their church is not built upon Jesus Christ, but on the human tradition.

4) Holy Father
RCC confess that their holy father is the Pope who dies and gets corrupted in the soil.
Our Holy Father is God the Father, who never dies.
We have only one Father, which is God the Father.
Our Holy Father lives forever, RCC’s holy father dies, dies, dies, and dies.


5) Mother of God

RCC confess Mary is Mother of God, then admit that Mary is not the Mother of God the Father.
By these confessions, RCC deny that God the Father is God. So, they encounter a serious problem with Trinity.


6) By Mass,
RCC confess that they don’t believe the redemption by Jesus Christ is Once For All.
RCC continuously ask God to forgive their sins without bringing the Gospel that even the daily sins they ask the forgiveness for were already forgiven at the Cross

7) Infant Baptism
RCC performs the Baptism unto the new-born babies who never confessed the faith and belief in Jesus Christ. By doing so, RCC brings millions of unbelievers into the Christendom.
They confess that they are the church of Unbelievers.

8) Prayer to the Dead,
RCC believes the Dead can travel everywhere and have the capacity exploded after death, to know everything in the world, to be everywhere in the world, to live forever thru the ages, to be perfect in delivering the message to God.
By this they confess that they believe in thousands of gods, which are omni-scient and omni-present.

 

[mes228]

Baptist

It's pretty foolish to argue and only gets a blot to our name. If your walk in life is to focus on Catholics theres little that I'll change. Go get em!! Especially in the name of God. But in the end, when the tale of your life is told and written he will have the last word. I know there's ex Catholics for Jesus. However, I also know an ex Baptist Minister is a major Apologetics writer for Catholicism. I think if you google the topic you'll encounter his writings on some of these topics. There are Baptist that convert to Catholicism and find Baptist beliefs repugnant. There are a couple of things I'll say on your topic list.

Forced Celibacy, is not true. This is not a doctrine of the Catholics. It is a discipline of the Catholics. This is a position based on the good of the church and not the bible. A discipline can be changed a doctrine can not. One reason it exist is to prevent nepotism. Look at Rev. Falwell death, he left his "work" to his sons. This was a great problem many years ago Priest left their churches to their families as though they owned the fruits of their labor. This was considered "making merchandise" of those converted. You leave something you own to your children. The discipline of celibacy was instituted to prevent this. Look around you Falwell, Graham, etc.etc. ad nauseum have left their televangelist "works" to their children. Practically every one. I don't think any Catholics believe celibacy is based on the Bible. Any Priest may marry but must quit to do so. A comparable Baptist belief would be "consumption of alcohol" this is a Baptist "discipline" not a doctrine. It is based on a perceived social need. A Baptist Minister is free to drink but would be removed for it. Many Baptist members believe that the no alcohol position is a doctrine and is Biblically based and argue it continually. The Baptist Faith and Message is quite clear as to what the "doctrine" really is. I agree 100% with BF&M. I also believe that there may have been better ways to prevent nepotism in Catholic churches. But for you to say "forced celibacy" is not exactly the whole picture. It's a choice the Priest must make freely to be employed as a Priest. It's a choice I don't agree with. But I don't agree with televangelist making merchandise of Gods children, soliciting tithes in the name of God, taking millions of hours of free donated labor from followers, then creating a 'family business" and leaving it to their children either. By the way a Catholic Priest also takes a vow of poverty that restricts him to never making more than $15,000 a year (that's an old number and may not be correct). Many televangelist cannot fly their jets for $15,000 an hour. By the way I attend Thomas Road Baptist Church.

 

[BobRyan]

It is not true that the only alternative to the RC error of forced celebacy on BOTH men and women - is "TeleEvangelists that are in some kind of error".

It is not true that all monks and Nunns have churches that they lead and so that is why they have to be celebate.

It is also not true that RC historians themselves do NOT report celebate Popes leaving the Papacy to friends and family.

It is also not true that local church priests can leave the leadership of their local church up to whomever they wish.

In fact as the RC historian Thomas Bokenkotter reports - the early Christian church leaders at first "refused to be called priests" it was only after inventing the system of "magic sacraments" that they started up the idea of priests similar to the Jewish system.

 

[mes228]

Baptist

Bob, I was speaking of the celibacy origins of Priest. The problem was "evangelist" going to far off places and raising up congregations and retaining them for them selves. As for televangelist I think (for the most part) the commandment "thou shall not use his name in vain" MAY apply. Some scholars don't limit that to just using God name to damn things. Some say this commandment is actually about the use of Gods name to "elevate or magnify self" (vanity CAN be the elevation of self). God will not hold him guiltless that uses his name to elevate and magnify himself. Seems to me the many, not the few, televangelist have used God to elevate themselves to great prominence and wealth. Some have become "personality cults" where their work reflects their greatness PERHAPS more than Gods. Some, when you lift the veil and follow the money, seem nothing more than scoundrels. This in no way suggest or means that true Christians do not come out of these "works" of men. maybe more later. gotta go.

 

[Eliyahu]

It's pretty foolish to argue and only gets a blot to our name.

Sir, you wouldn't have found it foolish if you had seriously paid the attention to what I pointed out as the summary of the Catholicism.

If your walk in life is to focus on Catholics theres little that I'll change. Go get em!! Especially in the name of God.

My walk in life is not to focus on Catholics, but on Jesus Christ. I don't want to get em! you may get them! YOu don't have to change! but you will get what you paid for. I don't use the name of God in vain!

But in the end, when the tale of your life is told and written he will have the last word.

I am quite confident with my belief for the Day of Great Judgment, how about you? I would kindly admonish you to read the Bible here:

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

I know there's ex Catholics for Jesus. However, I also know an ex Baptist Minister is a major Apologetics writer for Catholicism. I think if you google the topic you'll encounter his writings on some of these topics. There are Baptist that convert to Catholicism and find Baptist beliefs repugnant.

Maybe someone like you potentially now or in the future.

There are a couple of things I'll say on your topic list.
Forced Celibacy, is not true. This is not a doctrine of the Catholics. It is a discipline of the Catholics.

You sound like advocating Catholics more than Catholic themselves do.
Do you mean that Celibacy can be rejected by the priests?
Read here:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=8860

http://www.bakutoday.net/view.php?d=34720

This is a position based on the good of the church and not the bible. A discipline can be changed a doctrine can not.

Isn't that position overriding the Bible?
Where will the Papal Infallibility be gone then?

One reason it exist is to prevent nepotism. Look at Rev. Falwell death, he left his "work" to his sons. This was a great problem many years ago Priest left their churches to their families as though they owned the fruits of their labor. This was considered "making merchandise" of those converted. You leave something you own to your children. The discipline of celibacy was instituted to prevent this. Look around you Falwell, Graham, etc.etc. ad nauseum have left their televangelist "works" to their children. Practically every one.

Don't misunderstand that I advocate or condone the Televangelists or any Protestants' Nepotism such as John Hagee, etc. You cannot justify the wrong doctrines of Catholic by bringing another ugly practices of Televangelists. What is wrong is wrong even though you may bring thousands of other cases.

I don't think any Catholics believe celibacy is based on the Bible. Any Priest may marry but must quit to do so.

Why? I think you have not read the Bible saying this:
1 Tim 3:
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach

Titus 1:5-6

5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

Does your claim supersede the Bible teachings?
Or do you believe Discipline over the Bible teachings?

A comparable Baptist belief would be "consumption of alcohol" this is a Baptist "discipline" not a doctrine. It is based on a perceived social need. A Baptist Minister is free to drink but would be removed for it. Many Baptist members believe that the no alcohol position is a doctrine and is Biblically based and argue it continually. The Baptist Faith and Message is quite clear as to what the "doctrine" really is. I agree 100% with BF&M. I also believe that there may have been better ways to prevent nepotism in Catholic churches.

Bible doesn't specify about Alcohol drinking unless it is habitual or addicted. But as for the marriage, there are many teachings:

1 Cor 7: 2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Otherwise, you will find this:

http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/clerical_celibacy_and_pedophilic.htm

But for you to say "forced celibacy" is not exactly the whole picture.

You sound like the next Pope overriding the current Pope's statement " Obligatory"

"Pope confirms celibacy 'obligatory' for Catholic priests "
http://www.bakutoday.net/view.php?d=34720

It's a choice the Priest must make freely to be employed as a Priest.

It is not free unless you can equate the word " Obligatory" with "Free"

It's a choice I don't agree with. But I don't agree with televangelist making merchandise of Gods children, soliciting tithes in the name of God, taking millions of hours of free donated labor from followers, then creating a 'family business" and leaving it to their children either. By the way a Catholic Priest also takes a vow of poverty that restricts him to never making more than $15,000 a year (that's an old number and may not be correct). Many televangelist cannot fly their jets for $15,000 an hour. By the way I attend Thomas Road Baptist Church.

Again, I don't condone Televangelists. This thread is about RCC. If you want to talk about Televangelists and their Neptism, you can start a new thread. They must be condemned as well. In my view, the televangelists are like the Extended Roman Catholics.

The most of the Baptist pastors, as far as I know, live the average level of life, which is quite biblical as we read 2 Cor 8-9.
In addition to Nepotism, RCC ran another business of Simony, and you cannot compare the rich and luxurious life of the popes and cardinals with the poor baptist pastors either.

You brought only the issue of Celibacy among the problems with RCC which I mentioned, nevertheless you could bring no Biblical evidence to advocate the Obligatory Celibacy. Try to answer to 1 Tim 3:1-2, Titus 1:5-6, 1 Cor 7:2.

So far,
1. You could not defend yourself with the claim that the Irish Catholics were persecuted by Protestants, after I brought the article showing the Catholic Masacres against Protestants in Ireland.

2. You don't know much about the Catholicism itself.

3. You don't know the Bible teachings against the Paganism, Idolatry such as maintained by RCC.

4. You just advocate what you don't know very much, RCC, and therefore I hope you won't mind if I define you as a " Catholic Baptist" as you like Catholicism, and are still at a Baptist church.

 

[mes228]

Baptist

Dear Eliyahu, you are absolutely correct in one respect. I've spent my entire life proving that I don't know very much. Believe you me, I use to know it all and was prone to teach it too. Unfortunately for me, I was in a position that people listened. I knew it all, then repented when God granted me repentance. You, on the other hand, are very intelligent and deserve more recognition than I gave you. Perhaps God will mercifully forgive my understanding of Catholic's. You have enlightned me very much. I have a new respect for the incredible knowledge, skills, and understanding you have. In fact I find it hard to believe. Your understanding is incredible to say the least. I am sure God wishes you to put it to good use. With the skillful use scripture you've put me in my place. Foolish me, I had no idea that those scriptures existed in the way you used them!! As for history, you grasp the important concepts, you have your finger on the history of the true Church through all the ages. You are sure to influence many Catholics with these skills. Thank you for reminding me that "we Baptist are always right". I'm sure God will work with you. I know he has worked with me. I do so hope God has a sense of humor.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Why? I think you have not read the Bible saying this:
1 Tim 3:
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach

Titus 1:5-6

5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

Does your claim supersede the Bible teachings?
Or do you believe Discipline over the Bible teachings?

Eliyahu: We have already been down this beaten path once before and you either didn’t pay attention or just refused to listen.

As Mess288 has already pointed out and as did I on a previous thread, Celibacy isn’t a doctrine or dogma, it’s a practice. A practice that Catholic priest’s willingly and voluntarily accept for the sake of the kingdom.

Read carefully the very words of Christ:

Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it" (Matt. 19:11–12).​

-

 

[Eliyahu]

Mes228,
Thanks for your understanding. The fact that you attend Baptist church means that you have the best choice to hear and practice the Words of God with least paganism. I can tell you this quite neutrally because I am not a Baptist and disagree with some of their doctrines such as Mono-Pastoral system. But the teachings of Baptists are still within the range of tolerance and acceptance as long as they preach the Salvation thru being born-again, thru the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ.

As for the history, we can hardly or least prove which historical view is correct and accurate, instead we may be able to verify only the existence of the contentious and controversial views between RCC and non-Catholic, dissident group of believers throughout the history.

If we review the doctrines or beliefs or any practices of RCC, we can find they are not supported by Bible alone, but either by Apocrypha, or by ECF( Early Church Fathers), and the ultimate question is what we should do if we find the contradiction between Apocrypha and the Bible, between ECF's writings and the Bible. If we find the flaws of Apocrypha compared to the Bible, and the contradiction between ECF's writing and Bible, then I believe that those extra-Biblical writings should be deemed to be disqualified.

If we study more and more about the Catholicism, we find they maintain too many, too much Unbiblical or Extra biblical standings. I have refuted many of the beliefs and doctrines of RCC even on this board. Whenever I met a Catholic face to face, I have often found that they have never read the Bible, but they say " I am a Catholic, and therefore you don't need to preach the Gospel to me"

The other day I read the Bible Romans chapter 3 to a Philippino woman who has been a Catholic for 50 years, then she said she didn't know such words existed in Romans chapter 3, and she never heard about the meanings of Gospel. She never read the Bible at all in her life and was amazed to read that such Gospel exist in the Bible! Then I passed her my Bible.
This is a sad reality as there is a huge deception in so-called " Christendom"

I do not condone any Protestant denomination either. If you checked my posts against Calvin, against Luther, against Mono-Pastoral system, in defense of Head-Covering, you could find how strongly I condemned the murderous acts by Calvin and Luther.

In my youth I thought John Calvin was a great believer, but now I realize his understanding about the Bible was very often wrong, in Infant Baptism, Baptismal Regeneration, Clergy System, No Salvation outside the Holy Catholic Church, Predestination, etc.

For example, when Calvin asserted Infant Baptism, he brought the case of Noah's 3 children, but foolishly he didn't recognize 3 sons of Noah were already almost 100 years of age when they passed thru the Flood. I mentioned how much Anti-Semitic Martin Luther was, and that he was a Mary worshipper too.

There are huge amount of deception in the Christian world, which we have to reveal and perform the funeral for.
In the whole process of our journey and struggle, the Bible is the most powerful tool left with us by the Lord.

At the time of Elijah, there were 7 thousands of true Believers who never knelt down to Baal, but only Elijah was fighting against Baal. Those 7 thousands must have been saved. However, only Elijah who struggeled and fought Baal was raptured.

If we don't fight the paganism, idolatry, false teachings of RCC, we won't have the Reward from the Lord on His Day. We must perform the Funeral Services for the Paganism surrounding us.

 

[mes228]

Baptist

Agnus_Dei, I assume you are Catholic. Whether you are or not, I wish to apologize to you on behalf of rational, converted, Christian, Baptist. May not seem like it but there are some. A few anyway, perhaps a very few. I don't really have any authority to apologize for Baptist in general but feel someone should. The main saving grace of the Baptist Church is the freedom to "private interpretation" of scripture. I cherish that, even though it leads here. Some Baptist come from polemic spouting, fanatical, teaching non-supervised independent Churches, and Seminary's that makes them confrontational in a hard headed sort of way. Their cultic take on history, unknown to them, is pretty much common to many groups/churches. Some think it's "Baptist" when in fact you see it in a lot of churches/ cults/movements. Although I'm not Catholic, I greatly respect Catholicism in many ways. There's no way to regulate the the hierarchy within Baptist churches so a lot of sermons/teaching get preached that really don't reflect well on Baptist or the truth. Many members are ill equipped to to know so a paid professional id believed. I've heard sermons that really were not even Christian (actually I've preached some - sadly but that's another story). The "Baptist faith and Message" is way more balanced and scripturally accurate in the doctrine department than most Baptist. Best regards and have a great day.