The Truth about the RCC

[BobRyan]

On the "Talking to the Dead" thread -- Eliyahu states this ...

Many Protestants don't know the true history of the church.

They think that the Protestants came out of Roman Catholic and they include the Baptists and Brethren.
They may be correct in classifying Reformed Protestants as Reformed Catholics.

However, what no one can deny is that there existed all the time the dissident group of Christian believers who never belonged to Roman Catholic before the Reformation era since the Early Chruch, in the region under the Roman Catholic papacy. Such groups of Christian believers were heavily condemned by Catholics as Heretics and RCC made the cruel expedition devastating them many times like Crusade.
Some of them were called Donatists, Montanists, Novatians, Paulicians, Albigenes, Waldensians, Bogomils, West Deutsche Bruder Gemeinde, Bohemian Bruder Gemeinde, Anabaptists, and so on. They might have been wrong in some doctrines, but in general they refused the Idolatry, Mary Worship, Purgatory, Papacy, Infant Baptism, etc. and they confessed their true faith in Christ.

RCC condemned them as Heretics, then killed them and burnt their writings and documents of their own, thereafter RCC is accusing them of many heresies which they never claimed or believed.
But we know that Bible doesn't tell us to kill the Heretics even though we find Heretics but just to rebuke and to stay away from them.

#1. Why tell this inconvenient non-flattering truth about the history of RCC persecution during the dark ages?

#2. Why does the Bible point to it time after time in Dan 7 and Dan 8 and Rev 12 and Rev 13 and Rev 17 and ...?

#3. Why is it that when RC sources THEMSELVES point to these inconvenient facts regarding their own history - RC members feel it is best to trash their own RC sources??

What "Good" does it to do to cover this up??

On the other hand what "good" does it do to remind Catholics and non-Catholics of that sad history during the dark ages?

Is it "relevant" today for church that STILL claims to have been infallible during those days and STILL refuses to actually say that killing those it opposed "was wrong"???

What OTHER Christian church today takes that position???

IF the basis for rationalizing and justifying its "killing of others" is a series of bad doctrinal positions (some of which are outlined in Lateran IV in terms of EXTERMINATING those it opposes) then is it ALSO justified to take a hard look at how such erroneous doctrines were created? Or is it better to just ignore all that history AND ignore the fact that the RCC today does not feel it needs to own up to it as a mistake??


(Oops! But that would mean admitting to fallability)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Fourth Lateran Council, the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it puts the lie to revisionist Catholic claims that the state acted apart from the RCC. The council declared (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lat4-c3.html):

Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that
whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the
supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.




The Catholic church on anti-Semitism,
Will Durant writes in The Story of Civilization:


The Council of Vienna (1311) forbade all association between Christians and Jews. The Council of Zamora (1313) ruled that they must be kept in strict subjection and servitude. The Council of Basel (1431-33) renewed canonical decrees forbidding Christians to associate with Jews...and instructed secular authorities to confine the Jews in separate quarters, compel them to wear a distinguishing badge, and ensure their attendance at sermons aimed to convert them.
In 1243 the entire Jewish population of Belitz, near Berlin, was burned alive on the charge that some of them had defiled a consecrated Host. [...] In 1298 every Jew in Rottingen was burned to death on the charge of desecrating a sacramental wafer. Rindfleisch, a pious baron, organized and armed a band of Christians sworn to kill all Jews; they completely exterminated the Jewish community at Wurtzburg, and slew 698 Jews in Nuremberg.
"the ecclesiastical Council of Zamora (1313) decreed the imposition of the badge, the segregation of the Jewish from the Christian population, and a ban against the employment of Jewish physicians by Christians, or of Chrsitian servants by Jews
The Story of Civilization: Part IV "The Age of Faith" by Will Durant. Simon and Schuster, New York, 1950.


Pope Eugenius IV (1431-47)...added that [b]Jews should be ineligible for any public office, could not inherit property from Christians, must build no more synagogues, and must stay in their homes, behind closed doors and windows, in Passion Week[/b] (a wise provision against Catholic violence)....

In a later bull Eugenius ordered that any Italian Jew found reading Talmudic literature should suffer confiscation of his property. Pope Nicholas V commissioned St. John of Capistrano (1447) to see to it that every clause of this repressive legislation should be enforced, and authorized him to seize the property of any Jewish physician who treated a Christian.

As one of many examples of the decrees issued by Popes in support of persecuting and murdering non-Catholics, a 1487 bull of Pope Innocent VIII commanded that people "rise up in arms against" the Waldensians and "tread them under foot".[/b]

Catholic historian Peter de Rosa writes in Vicars of Christ (Crown Publishers, 1988), [b]"Of eighty popes in a line from the thirteenth century on not one of them disapproved of the theology and apparatus of the Inquisition. On the contrary, one after another added his own cruel touches to the workings of this deadly machine."

 

[BobRyan]

Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100
The question:
A Baptist family who lives across the street gave me a book called the “Trail of Blood”, by J.M. Carroll. It attacks Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism, indulgences, purgatory, and so on. But I am writing to learn if there is anything in history that would justify the following quotation:

“The world has Never seen anything to compare with the persecution heaped upon the Baptists by the Catholic hierarchy of the Dark Ages. The Pope was the world’s dictator. This is why the Anabaptists before the Reformation called the Pope the Anti-Christ”. Then: “Fifty million died by persecution over a period of 1200 years because of the Catholic Church”

The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan:

“There weren’t any Baptists until 1609, generally thought of as a year occurring after the Dark Ages. (that is why the article above includes Anabaptists) Anabaptists (means anti-baptism of infants – so they re-baptized them as adults) means “re-baptizers” and was a name given to groups existing in the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th centuries but they had no connection with the violent civil-religious (Catholic) reformers who appeared in 1521 at Zwickau in Saxony. These 16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”

In the article above – Fr. Ken Ryan makes the meaning of “extermination” of that group and “many other groups” clear for modern readers.
Catholic apologists like Catholic Digest’s Fr. Ken Ryan quoted above often argue that the RCC isn't accountable for the Inquisition, since the state carried out the torturing and the executions. It was the RCC who defined these people as "heretics", however, and the RCC handed them over to the state (John 19:11).

 

[BobRyan]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45674


I'm also encouraged by Benedict XVI, who seems to have inherited John Paul II's humility as well as his loyalty to foundational doctrines. On Jan. 22, 1998, when he was still a cardinal and the grand Inquisitor (yes!) of the Roman Catholic Church, he declared that their archives (4,500 large volumes) indicate a death toll of 25 million killed by the Catholic Church for being "heretics." And likely two-thirds of the original volumes are lost. That kind of honesty will help relations (though there is no basis for uniting the RCC with Bible-believing Protestant churches).
On the downside, Catholics still persecute Protestants worldwide much more than vice versa,

Consider the following news stories from the Vatican City.

Vatican Hosts Inquisition Symposium

By CANDICE HUGHES

.c The Associated Press

VATICAN CITY (AP) – The Vatican assembled a blue-ribbon panel of scholars Thursday to examine the Inquisition and declared its readiness to submit the church's darkest institution to the judgment of history.

The three-day symposium is part of the Roman Catholic Church's countdown to 2000. Pope John Paul II wants the church to begin the new millennium with a clear conscience, which means facing up to past sins.

For many people, the Inquisition is one of the church's worst transgressions. For centuries, ecclesiastical ``thought police'' tried, tortured and burned people at the stake for heresy and other crimes.

``The church cannot cross the threshold of the new millennium without pressing its children to purify themselves in repentance for their errors, infidelity, incoherence,'' Cardinal Roger Etchegaray said, opening the conference.

The inquisitors went after Protestants, Jews, Muslims and presumed heretics. They persecuted scientists like Galileo. They banned the Bible in anything but Latin, which few ordinary people could read.

The Inquisition began in the 13th century and lasted into the 19th. An index of banned books endured even longer, until 1966. And it was 1992 before the church rehabilitated Galileo, condemned for saying the Earth wasn't the center of the universe.

The symposium, which gathers experts from inside and outside the church, is the Vatican's first critical look at the church's record of repression.

Among other things, it will give scholars a chance to compare notes on what they've found in the secret Vatican archives on the Inquisition, which the Holy See only recently opened.

``The church is not afraid to submit its past to the judgment of history,'' said Etchegaray, a Frenchman who leads the Vatican's Commission on the Grand Jubilee.

Closed to the public and press, the symposium is not expected to produce any definitive statement from the Vatican on the Inquisition. That is expected in 2000 as part of the grand ``mea culpa'' at the start of Christianity's third millennium.

The great question is whether the pontiff will ask forgiveness for the sins of the church's members, as it did with the Holocaust, or for the sins of the church itself. Unlike the Holocaust, the Inquisition was a church initiative authorized by the popes themselves.

Etchegaray on Thursday swept aside the idea that it can be seen a series of local campaigns whose excesses might be blamed on secular authorities. There was only one Inquisition, he said, and it was undeniably an ecclesiastical institution.

The pontiff may give a hint as to his thinking on Saturday, when he meets with participants in the conference.

About 50 scholars from Europe, the United States and Latin America are taking part.

AP-NY-10-29-98 1403EST

 

[BobRyan]

Catholic Church says must own up for Inquisition

By Alessandra Galloni

VATICAN CITY, Oct 29 (Reuters) - The Vatican on Thursday said it had to take responsibility for one of the darkest eras in Roman Catholic church history and not lay blame for the Inquisition on civil prosecutors.

Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, head of the Vatican's main committee for the year 2000, opened a three-day symposium on the Inquisition saying it was time to re-examine the work of the special court the church set up in 1233 to curb heresy.

Etchegaray said some scholars claimed there were several inquisitions: one in Rome, which worked directly under the Holy See's control, and others in Spain and in Portugal which were often aided by the local civil courts.

``We cannot ignore the fact that this (attempt to distinguish between inquisitions) has allowed some to make apologetic arguments and lay responsibility for what Iberian tribunals did onto civil authorities,'' he said.

``The fact that the Spanish and Portuguese crowns...had powers of intervention...on inquisitory tribunals does not change the ecclesiastical character of the institution,'' he said.

Pope Gregory IX created the Inquisition to help curb heresy, but church officials soon began to count on civil authorities to fine, imprison and even torture heretics.

One of the Inquisition's best known victims was the astronomer Galileo, condemned for claiming the earth revolved around the sun.

The Inquisition reached its height in the 16th century to counter the Reformation. The department later became the Holy Office and its successor now is called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which controls the orthodoxy of Catholic teaching.

Some of the conclusions of the international symposium, which ends on Saturday, could be included in a major document in which the church is expected to ask forgiveness for its past errors as part of celebrations for the year 2000.

The church ``cannot pass into the new millennium without urging its sons to purify themselves, through penitence, of its errors, its infidelities and its incoherences...,'' Father Georges Cottier, a top Vatican theologian and head of the theological commission for the year 2000, told the symposium.

Etchegaray said the conference could also draw on examples that scholars had been able to examine since January, when the Vatican opened secret files.

The archives also opened the infamous Index of Forbidden Books which Roman Catholics were not allowed to read or possess on pain of excommunication. Even the bible was on the blacklist.

Pope John Paul has said in several documents and speeches that the Church needs to assume responsibility for the Inquisition, which was responsible for the forced conversion of Jews as well as the torture and killing of heretics.

While there may have been mitigating historical factors for the behaviour of some Catholics, the Pope has said this did not prevent the church from expressing regret for the wrongs of its members in some periods of history.

He initiated the procedure that led to the rehabilitation of Galileo, completed in 1992.

19:01 10-29-98

 

[Eliyahu]

The questions can be outlined as:

1) Do Catholic admit that their ancestors tortured and killed the people by condemning them as Heretics?

2) Do they still claim that the Heretics can be tortured and slaughtered.

3) The previous Pope is said to have confessed the repentence on the past history of such killings, but how many RC understand what such repentance means

4) How many RC know about the tragic masacres caused by RCC, and how much they know about it.

5) What if the doctrines of RCC are found to be heresies, would they be ready to accept any torturing and killings?

6) Can we examine the heresies of RCC such as Idolatry, Mary Worship, Prayer to the Dead, Papacy, Infant Baptism, Transubstantiation, Mass, Clergy system, Compulsory celibacy, Indulgence, Purgatory etc?
If they are found to be Heresies, judged by God, are they ready to accept such torturing and killing themselves?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I know that the final attack on Roman Catholicism, when all else fails, is the Inquisition. I’ve used such tactics as a fundamentalist myself.

Here’s the deal. I’m not going to defend the Churches actions or whitewash the issue. I don’t fear that the facts about the Inquisition might ‘prove’ the illegitimacy of the Catholic Church. St. Paul and Christ Himself warned us that there would be a few ravenous wolves among Church leaders (Acts 20:29; Mat. 7:15).

For the anti-Catholic it’s often about statistics…how many perished…one number I’ve seen is 95 million…that’s absurd, due to the fact that the population in the areas affected by the Inquisition didn’t approach 95 million until modern times. The Inquisition didn’t exist in Northern Europe, Eastern Europe, Scandinavia, or England. Mainly the Inquisition took place in Southern France, Italy, Spain and a few parts of the Holy Roman Empire. In other words arguing about statistics is a waste of time.

Further more, pagans killed far more Christians than all the different Inquisitions and Reformation acts combined.

All these different sects that Eliyahu likes to bring up that the Catholic Church persecuted and claim to be the roots of today’s ‘bible Christians’ are certainly not the same as modern day Fundamentalism, and Fundamentalist sympathy for these destructive belief systems is sadly misplaced.

The real point others try to make with these type posts is to try and prove that some thing as dreadful as the Inquisition couldn’t have been associated with a divinely established Church.

It’s easy when I read the Old Testament, to see how those who led the Inquisitions could have thought at the time, that their actions were justified. The Bible itself records instances where God commanded that formal, legal inquiries or inquisitions, be carried out to expose secret believers in false religions. See Deut 17:2-5.

It’s also clear from Deut. 13:6-11, that there were some Israelites who posed as believers in and keepers of the covenant with Yahweh, while inwardly they didn’t believe and secretly practiced false religions and even tried to spread them. Therefore, in order to protect the kingdom, from such hidden heresy, these secret practitioners had to be rooted out and expelled. Even these directives from The LORD applied to whole cities that had turned away from the true religion (Deut. 13:12-18). And I could go on, but you get the picture.

Even the first Protestants also tried to root out and punish those they regarded as heretic. Luther and Calvin both endorsed the right of the state to protect society by purging false religions. Look at Calvin, he not only banished from Geneva those who didn’t share his views, he also permitted and in some cases ordered others to be executed for ‘heresy’, see Jacques Gouet, and Michael Servetus. Both English and Irish Catholics were put to death by refusing to become Catholic. Tensions are still evident in Ireland and England today…hence the U2 song ‘Where the Streets Have No Name’, where you are identified ‘Protestant’ or ‘Catholic’ by the street you live on.

This is the point; again I’m not going to defend either side for their actions, when both parties easily understood the Bible to require the use of penal sanctions to root out false religions from Christian society.

 

[Eliyahu]

Further more, pagans killed far more Christians than all the different Inquisitions and Reformation acts combined.

All these different sects that Eliyahu likes to bring up that the Catholic Church persecuted and claim to be the roots of today’s ‘bible Christians’ are certainly not the same as modern day Fundamentalism, and Fundamentalist sympathy for these destructive belief systems is sadly misplaced.

The real point others try to make with these type posts is to try and prove that some thing as dreadful as the Inquisition couldn’t have been associated with a divinely established Church.

It’s easy when I read the Old Testament, to see how those who led the Inquisitions could have thought at the time, that their actions were justified. The Bible itself records instances where God commanded that formal, legal inquiries or inquisitions, be carried out to expose secret believers in false religions. See Deut 17:2-5.

It’s also clear from Deut. 13:6-11, that there were some Israelites who posed as believers in and keepers of the covenant with Yahweh, while inwardly they didn’t believe and secretly practiced false religions and even tried to spread them. Therefore, in order to protect the kingdom, from such hidden heresy, these secret practitioners had to be rooted out and expelled. Even these directives from The LORD applied to whole cities that had turned away from the true religion (Deut. 13:12-18). And I could go on, but you get the picture.

Even the first Protestants also tried to root out and punish those they regarded as heretic. Luther and Calvin both endorsed the right of the state to protect society by purging false religions. Look at Calvin, he not only banished from Geneva those who didn’t share his views, he also permitted and in some cases ordered others to be executed for ‘heresy’, see Jacques Gouet, and Michael Servetus. Both English and Irish Catholics were put to death by refusing to become Catholic. Tensions are still evident in Ireland and England today…hence the U2 song ‘Where the Streets Have No Name’, where you are identified ‘Protestant’ or ‘Catholic’ by the street you live on.

This is the point; again I’m not going to defend either side for their actions, when both parties easily understood the Bible to require the use of penal sanctions to root out false religions from Christian society.

1. The figures like 95 million may be the sum of the total period thru the Dark Ages, and therefore it can be in similitude. Nobody knows the exact figure except God, but it may give some understanding about the historical facts.

2. Your apologetics confess very welll the view of RCC claiming that Heresies should be put to death according to the OT commandments.
There are some rules which cannot be applied to the Gentile World, to the New Testament society. Those are that animals don't have to be killed as Jesus finished the sacrifice. Another thing is that nobody should be killed because of their belief. Has Paul ever killed anyone because of the Heresy? ONly before Paul was saved while he was a Pharisee, he persecuted and handed over the Christian believers to be killed.
Read Titus 4:10
A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition, reject!

RCC replace this Reject with Kill, misunderstanding that OT commandments should be in effect in this NT era.

Why is there such difference between OT and NT?

In NT the Gentiles were never given any commandments like 10 commandments. and God knows that the Jewish Law didn't work even though the Israelites were chosen people with many miracles. Therefore the Law of the Holy spirit working in NT era is definitely different from OT law. However, stupidly RCC and Reformers like Calvin and Luther applied such OT principle to the people of NT.

In NT the greatest Law is the Love. However, RCC never showed such love to the people who opposed to their doctrines. If I had lived the Medieval era, I would have been killed because I would have opposed to the Idolatry, Purgatory, Infant Baptism etc.

3. One of the great misunderstanding by RCC and Calvin was that they didn't realize they didn't live in the era OLd Testament but in the NT era.
What RCC did in the past killing the people was very similar to what Paul did when he was not converted, before he became a true Christian believer. This means that RCC is the congregation of the unbelievers.

Even today, many RCC people do not realize today is the era of NT and Jesus finished all the sacrifice already at the Cross. They still apply the killings of OT to the Heretics as they advocate such behaviors.
This means that RCC will repeat the Killing Spree again whenever the chances are coming. RCC is making a great preparation for the next Great Tribulation now.

At the moment, they are quiet and healing their wounds caused by the previous bad history. Time may heal their wounds for human eyes and many people will follow them as they run the Broad-Way thru wide gate ( Mt 7:13-14)

 

[Agnus_Dei]

This means that RCC will repeat the Killing Spree again whenever the chances are coming. RCC is making a great preparation for the next Great Tribulation now.

Please, this is nothing more than Dave Hunt's words. :laugh: Even as a Fundamentalist, we were never taught that the RCC was going to be were the anti-Christ comes out of.

If history repeats itself, it’ll be the RCC that’ll defend Christianity with its life. Ricky Skaggs the Blue Grass singer/song writer has a CD called ‘Soldiers of the Cross’. It’s dedicated to the likes of The Knights of St. John and The Knights of Malta who under overwhelming odds were Europe’s last defense against the Turks and kept Christianity from being swept away from Europe and replaced with Islam. Oh by the way, those Knights were Catholic. So if it weren’t for the Catholics, we’d more than likely be worshipping Allah today?

What’s the major religion where Paul once had his missionary travels?

So if I had to bet money on whose making preparations for the “next” Great Tribulation, it’ll be Islam, whose itching to convert us all to Allah anyway.

In addition, when was the first Great Tribulation?
-

 

[BobRyan]

I know that the final attack on Roman Catholicism, when all else fails, is the Inquisition. I’ve used such tactics as a fundamentalist myself.

Here’s the deal. I’m not going to defend the Churches actions or whitewash the issue. I don’t fear that the facts about the Inquisition might ‘prove’ the illegitimacy of the Catholic Church. St. Paul and Christ Himself warned us that there would be a few ravenous wolves among Church leaders (Acts 20:29; Mat. 7:15).

Step one is to simply get everyone on the same page "admitting to the facts of history" when it comes to the inquisition, torture of the saints etc.

Step two - once you admit that torturing and killing those who have dotrinal differences with you is "wrong" (and this is a BIGGG step I know) the next step is to contrast THIS fact to the RC Canon Laws regarding "extermination" of the same.

Step Three - once you bring yourself to admit to the glaring facts of Lateran IV etc - then the NEXT step is to boldly admit that calling for the "extermination" of those with doctrinal differences was wrong as it is defined in BOTH the actions of the RCC in the dark ages AND in the WORDS of it's canon laws such as those declared in Lateran IV.

Step FOUR is then to ask WHERE is the place where the modern RCC ADMITS that this was error? If the MODERN RCC addresses these glaring facts as "still being the right thing to do" THEN you have a HUGE problem sir.

For the anti-Catholic it’s often about statistics…how many perished…one number I’ve seen is 95 million

As the QUOTES show above - the CURRENT POPE admits to 25 million and the fact that this may be only 1/3 of the REAL number. But whether it is 1 Million or 10 Million the point remains -- it was wrong! The RCC needs to not only SAY that it was wrong - it needs to then EXPLAIN how it is that it's claim to infalibility can allow for its own canon law to be SO WRONG that it calls for the "extermination" of those Christians that differe with it!!

Further more, pagans killed far more Christians than all the different Inquisitions and Reformation acts combined.

Is there some lingering "claim" by pagans to have been "infallible" during the dark ages??

Is there some existing pagan nation who claims to have taken part in the killing of Christians AND claims to have been AND STILL be "infallible" on the subject of morals and doctrinal statements EVEN though the torture and killing of innocents is "morally wrong"?

IF SO - then they too have something to answer for just as does the RCC.

The real point others try to make with these type posts is to try and prove that some thing as dreadful as the Inquisition couldn’t have been associated with a divinely established Church.

The claim is that ANY church claiming "infallibility" in the very act of calling for the EXTERMINATION of Christians and Jews -- "has something to answer for " in addition to offering the much expected "appology for SPECIFIC actions such as Lateran IV's call for EXTERMINATION".

It’s easy when I read the Old Testament, to see how those who led the Inquisitions could have thought at the time, that their actions were justified. The Bible itself records instances where God commanded that formal, legal inquiries or inquisitions, be carried out to expose secret believers in false religions. See Deut 17:2-5.

Agreed. That "rationalization" is possible - but IF that is STILL BEING USED to claim that the torture and extermination of innocents is in fact that RIGH "morally infallible" thing to have done in the dark ages or in ANY christian age -- then you have a HUGE problem sir.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Please, this is nothing more than Dave Hunt's words. :laugh:

I bought some of his books but haven't read any of them yet, but I believe he shares many of the same views with me as he is another so-called PB.

Even as a Fundamentalist, we were never taught that the RCC was going to be were the anti-Christ comes out of.

None of Jewish leaders such as High priests and elders knew that they were killing Messiah when they killed Jesus.

But RCC killed the people just because they were doing the work of God like this:

John 16:
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

If history repeats itself, it’ll be the RCC that’ll defend Christianity with its life. Ricky Skaggs the Blue Grass singer/song writer has a CD called ‘Soldiers of the Cross’. It’s dedicated to the likes of The Knights of St. John and The Knights of Malta who under overwhelming odds were Europe’s last defense against the Turks and kept Christianity from being swept away from Europe and replaced with Islam. Oh by the way, those Knights were Catholic. So if it weren’t for the Catholics, we’d more than likely be worshipping Allah today?

I don't know those guys. But the True believers like Bogomils and Paulicians were the shield even for the RCC, when RCC killed Bogomils and Paulicians, they had to confront the Turks for themselves. It is nonsense that RCC protected the Europe against Islam by killing the Christians after they condemned them as Heretics. RCC should have taught such tactics to Jesus so that He could have taught it in the Gospel!

What’s the major religion where Paul once had his missionary travels?

I don't what is your question exactly, but my understanding is that there were many kinds of paganism and some of them accepted the Christian truth, but more number of pagans perverted the Christianity for their own interests.

So if I had to bet money on whose making preparations for the “next” Great Tribulation, it’ll be Islam, whose itching to convert us all to Allah anyway.
In addition, when was the first Great Tribulation?
-

Bible tells us who they are.
Revelation 17:4-7
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10

There are several hints on the Babylon:

1) Great Babylon, the Mother of Harlots is an abomination of Idolatry( Bdelygmaton).

2) drank Blood of the Witnesses of Jesus

3) It sits on the seven hills

4) It has connections with the Kings of the nations.



- Vatican has been the representative religion of Idolatry in the west while BUddhism has been the representative in the east Asia.

- BUddhism didn't kill many Christians as RCC did, Islam killed many Christians but may be far less than RCC did.

- Islam doesn't sit on the seven hills, Vatican sits on the seven hills in Rome

- Islam doesn't have many connections with the leaders of the world.
Most of the world leaders are Catholic, Canadian PM's were Catholic, most of the US presidents after WWII are having good relationship with Vatican, most of South American presidents, most of EU leaders are Catholic or Pro-Catholic, African countries and Asian countries have the diplomatic relationship with Vatican, because RCC is a religion but also a state.

- RCC doctrines are not supported by the Bible scripture, but their natures are close to the paganism.

- RCC is trying to unite all the religions of the world, including Islam thru Fatima and Oslo agreement, including Buddhism in Asia, including Presbyterian, Methodists, COE, Lutheran, Greek Orthodox, thru Ecumenical etc.

- True believers ( who oppose many RCC doctrines like Purgatory, Infant Baptism, Theotokos) will not join the UNITED religion under RCC. Then these will be condemned as Heretics. They will suffer a lot due to the United Catholic and this will be the Great Tribulation.

However, the True Believers will win over the Great Harlot ! as KIng of Kings will come again, and the followers of the Great Harlot will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

The important thing by which we can recognize who will be the Harlot who will drink the Blood of believers is whether anyone still believe that one Religion can torture and kill any people if they find them as Heretics.

For example, I oppose Theotokos, Idol making and Idol worshipping, Purgatory, Infant Baptism, Papacy, Transubstantiation, even Ecumenical. Then I am sure that RCC will condemn me as a Heretic, then they still believe that they can torture and kill me because I am found a Heretic.
Can we have not the right to live as a heretic without suffering the torture and persecution ? RCC have not allowed it and do not change this habit even today.

RCC has many organization to proceed with their agenda, such as Jesuit, Opus Dei, Dominic, etc. Can we find such organization in the Bible?
Though we have to pass thru lots of, lots of persecutions, we will win over them as God is our defender!

 

[BobRyan]

Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100
The question:
A Baptist family who lives across the street gave me a book called the “Trail of Blood”, by J.M. Carroll. It attacks Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism, indulgences, purgatory, and so on. But I am writing to learn if there is anything in history that would justify the following quotation:

“The world has Never seen anything to compare with the persecution heaped upon the Baptists by the Catholic hierarchy of the Dark Ages. The Pope was the world’s dictator. This is why the Anabaptists before the Reformation called the Pope the Anti-Christ”. Then: “Fifty million died by persecution over a period of 1200 years because of the Catholic Church”

The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan:

“There weren’t any Baptists until 1609, generally thought of as a year occurring after the Dark Ages. (that is why the article above includes Anabaptists) Anabaptists (means anti-baptism of infants – so they re-baptized them as adults) means “re-baptizers” and was a name given to groups existing in the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th centuries but they had no connection with the violent civil-religious (Catholic) reformers who appeared in 1521 at Zwickau in Saxony. These 16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”

In the article above – Fr. Ken Ryan makes the meaning of “extermination” of that group and “many other groups” clear for modern readers.
Catholic apologists like Catholic Digest’s Fr. Ken Ryan quoted above often argue that the RCC isn't accountable for the Inquisition, since the state carried out the torturing and the executions. It was the RCC who defined these people as "heretics", however, and the RCC handed them over to the state (John 19:11).

 

[BobRyan]

Vatican Hosts Inquisition Symposium

By CANDICE HUGHES
.c The Associated Press

VATICAN CITY (AP) – The Vatican assembled a blue-ribbon panel of scholars Thursday to examine the Inquisition and declared its readiness to submit the church's darkest institution to the judgment of history.

The three-day symposium is part of the Roman Catholic Church's countdown to 2000. Pope John Paul II wants the church to begin the new millennium with a clear conscience, which means facing up to past sins.

For many people, the Inquisition is one of the church's worst transgressions. For centuries, ecclesiastical ``thought police'' tried, tortured and burned people at the stake for heresy and other crimes.

``The church cannot cross the threshold of the new millennium without pressing its children to purify themselves in repentance for their errors, infidelity, incoherence,'' Cardinal Roger Etchegaray said, opening the conference.

The inquisitors went after Protestants, Jews, Muslims and presumed heretics. They persecuted scientists like Galileo. They banned the Bible in anything but Latin, which few ordinary people could read.

The Inquisition began in the 13th century and lasted into the 19th. An index of banned books endured even longer, until 1966. And it was 1992 before the church rehabilitated Galileo, condemned for saying the Earth wasn't the center of the universe.

The symposium, which gathers experts from inside and outside the church, is the Vatican's first critical look at the church's record of repression.

Among other things, it will give scholars a chance to compare notes on what they've found in the secret Vatican archives on the Inquisition, which the Holy See only recently opened.

``The church is not afraid to submit its past to the judgment of history,'' said Etchegaray, a Frenchman who leads the Vatican's Commission on the Grand Jubilee.

Closed to the public and press, the symposium is not expected to produce any definitive statement from the Vatican on the Inquisition. That is expected in 2000 as part of the grand ``mea culpa'' at the start of Christianity's third millennium.

The great question is whether the pontiff will ask forgiveness for the sins of the church's members, as it did with the Holocaust, or for the sins of the church itself. Unlike the Holocaust, the Inquisition was a church initiative authorized by the popes themselves.

Etchegaray on Thursday swept aside the idea that it can be seen a series of local campaigns whose excesses might be blamed on secular authorities. There was only one Inquisition, he said, and it was undeniably an ecclesiastical institution.

The pontiff may give a hint as to his thinking on Saturday, when he meets with participants in the conference.

About 50 scholars from Europe, the United States and Latin America are taking part.

AP-NY-10-29-98 1403EST

 

[Eliyahu]

Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100
It was the RCC who defined these people as "heretics", however, and the RCC handed them over to the state (John 19:11).

Good to link with Jn 19:11

 

[DQuixote]

With the exception of Agnus Dei, would the debaters here kindly visit a Muslim forum and explain to them that the Crusaders were Catholics, not Christians?

Thank you.
:thumbs:

 

[Eliyahu]

Vatican Hosts Inquisition Symposium

By CANDICE HUGHES
.c The Associated Press

VATICAN CITY (AP) – The Vatican assembled a blue-ribbon panel of scholars Thursday to examine the Inquisition and declared its readiness to submit the church's darkest institution to the judgment

I don't think RCc will sincerely admit what they did with Inquisitions etc. they will never repent on what they did in the past.
If they repent wholeheartedly, they should declare the decompositon of the whole RCC, which will never happen.
This will go until the end times when Jesus Christ comes again!

 

[Eliyahu]

With the exception of Agnus Dei, would the debaters here kindly visit a Muslim forum and explain to them that the Crusaders were Catholics, not Christians?

Thank you.
:thumbs:

Where is it?

 

[mes228]

Catholics

Much of the Anti-Catholic feeling's espoused by American Protestants come from books such as "Fox's book Of Martyrs", The Two Babylon's, Babylon Mystery Religion etc.etc.". These are polemics, not absolute fact. We were all raised in a Protestant country. Learning the truth about Catholic's and history is comparable to someone being raised in an Arab country and discerning the truth of being Jewish or Christian. What truth can a Palestinian child tell you of Christianity?? Chances are he can't as he's been educated and taught by the use of hate literature, polemics, half truths etc.etc. Sorry to say it but much of what we Protestant's "know" simply isn't so. Christians killing Christians was not all one sided. Many Catholics were killed (perhaps as many as the Inquisitition, also the numbers are greatly in dispute), lands and fortunes seized, Priest burnt at the stake, etc. etc. The history of Christianity is not entirely Catholics persecuting and killing Protestants. Look at Irish history. The T-shirt with the military slogan "Kill them all, let God sort them" is a rewording of a historical event. A Protestant burning a church containing hundreds of men. women, and children. When told many were innocent, some not even Catholic, he instructed his Protestant soldiers to " kill them all, God knows his own". That's why the Orange day Parade is violent to this day in Ireland. Did anyone teach you these type of Protestant butcheries? It might be a good thing to read the Catholic perspective of some of these events. By the way I'm Baptist and much to my shame have actually preached anti-Catholic sermons. I repent deeply and bitterly. My only excuse is I taught, as I was taught. Anyone would be wise to step outside the box, when teaching others. I don't think God was very pleased, nor honored by some of the things I've taught. God is not in a box, or in a denomination. Neither is history. All these past Christian events must be looked at in the context of the time.

 

[Eliyahu]

Many Catholics were killed (perhaps as many as the Inquisitition, also the numbers are greatly in dispute), lands and fortunes seized, Priest burnt at the stake, etc. etc. The history of Christianity is not entirely Catholics persecuting and killing Protestants. Look at Irish history. The T-shirt with the military slogan "Kill them all, let God sort them" is a rewording of a historical event. A Protestant burning a church containing hundreds of men. women, and children. When told many were innocent, some not even Catholic, he instructed his Protestant soldiers to " kill them all, God knows his own". That's why the Orange day Parade is violent to this day in Ireland. Did anyone teach you these type of Protestant butcheries?

I don't advocate Protestants. There may be 3 groups in this discussion.

The Biggest group, RCC, Then Reformers ( Protestants), then True Christians.

Many RCC may have been killed while they were killing millions of Indians and raping their women.

Here are the sites for Irish masacres:

http://www.scotchirish.net/1641.php4

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/plantation/planters/es10.shtml

BBC might have been wrong with groundless history?

RCC still maintain the stance that Heretics can be ( or should be) killed. This is important.

 

[mes228]

Catholics

I wouldn't put the death of the South American Indians at the feet of the Catholic Church as much as I would at the feet of greed and carnality. We Protestants did a pretty good number on our native Indian population without too much Catholic help. As did the Australians on the Aborigines. Perhaps some of these societies were so evil that God removed them out of his sight. Mel Gibson's movie (though perhaps not accurate) portrays them as pretty bad neighbors. Some that lived then felt so. The point I wanted to make was there is enough evil deeds to go around. It's not just a Catholic thing. It's a human thing. As for Catholics still believing that some should be held accountable for what they preach/teach. I suspect God does and at times I do too. Those poor folk that followed Jim Jones south may have been better off if he had perished earlier (not to speak of Joseph Smith). As I grow older I feel that many words of preachers will follow them into the after life and an account given. Personally I believe there are entire television networks dedicated to heresy (and at times I think the world might be better off if they ceased to broadcast). I also feel many televangelist are making merchandise of naive, goodly intentioned people, trying to follow a calling from God. I personally have known 3 Apostles in my life and they were not Catholic. At least they claimed to be apostles ( I felt awful for those that followed them and still do). They thought they were Apostles but I'm not sure God did. There's Bishops everywhere, and Prophets too numerous to count. The Catholic body of the Magisterium might not be a bad thing in the Protestant world come to think of it. Thankfully God understands all these things, as I don't. In some way not so savory people are used to produce Christians in spite of themselves.