Eliyahu said:
1) Fallible Infallibility of Pope's Decrees or Bulls from Ex
Cathedra
I’m not familiar with every Bull, nor am I aware that all Bull’s are from
Ex Cathedra, but we’ve discussed what
ex Cathedra is and what it isn’t. We’ve also discussed what Papal Infallibility is and what it isn’t. I’ve also demonstrated from scripture the Catholic Church’s stand on its Teaching Authority.
Eliyahu said:
2) Unnecessary "Obligatory" Celibacy
Just because it’s “unnecessary to YOU, doesn’t make it an offense. Priest’s volunteer to be Celibate for the Sake of the Kingdom, as Christ Himself stated and was Celibate Himself. It’s not a dogma, it’s a practice or custom and these small “t” traditions can change.
Eliyahu said:
3) Magic Transubstantiation confessing that they are cut off from the People of God.
In what way are “they” cut off from the “People of God?” You’re problem is with the term “Transubstantiation”. I’ve pointed out that the Eastern Church was the first to coin a term describing what takes place at the Lord’s Table. The Catholic Church built upon the Eastern term out of necessity in response to the “symbolism” charge, as did Luther with his “consubstantiation”.
We’ve directed you to plenty of Holy Scripture both Old and New Testaments, as well as Church Tradition.
Eliyahu said:
4) Infant Baptism without the confession of Faith
In regard to Infant Baptism, you or anyone else has yet to prove that there weren’t any small infants or children under the age of reason in these households that were baptized. It also has yet to be shown where Holy Scripture specifically prohibits infants from receiving the Sacrament.
I’ve pointed out that “proving” Infant Baptism begins with defending Baptismal Regeneration, which was dully defended in Holy Scripture.
I’ve also pointed out and agreed that Holy Scripture says to
repent and be baptized, but St. Paul was speaking to adults, who were still stained from both original and actual sin. Infant Baptism accomplishes the washing of original sin first and actual sin is by repentance once of age.
Both the Eastern and Western Church, along with Early Church history and a handful of mainline Protestant Churches believe in Baptismal Regeneration and practice Infant Baptism.
Eliyahu said:
Extreme Unction after Death, which is extremely ridiculous.
Maybe ridiculous to you Eliyahu, but not to the Church, Her Fathers and many of the mainline Protestant Churches of today.
Extreme Unction is an old name for
last anointing, but traditional it means
anointing the sick. It is a healing Sacrament that’s meant for the living as well as those who maybe near death.
Mark 16:13 and James 5:14-15 of those that are sick that are receiving this Sacrament to convey God’s grace to the recipient, through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Eliyahu said:
Agnus,
would you "beat" us with some other truth like Mary's Perpetual Virginity? or Purgatory? or Mary's Immaculate Conception?
Sure, I’d be happy to take the proverbial bat to you one more time. Just say the Greek word for “uncle” when you’ve had enough…
Mary’s Perpetual Virginity: Let’s attack the
the bretheren of the Lord. As pointed out with the Greek word
baptzo, which has more than one meaning; the Greek word
brother (
adelphos) also has a wide meaning and isn’t restricted to the literal meaning of full or half brother.
The Old Testament shows that "brother" had a wide semantic range of meaning and could refer to any male relative from whom you are not descended (male relatives from whom you are descended are known as "fathers") and who are not descended from you (your male descendants, regardless of the number of generations removed, are your "sons"), as well as kinsmen such as cousins, those who are members of the family by marriage or by law rather than by blood, and even friends or mere political allies (2 Sam. 1:26; Amos 1:9).
Lot, for example, is called Abraham’s "brother" (Gen. 14:14), even though, being the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–28), he was actually Abraham’s nephew. Similarly, Jacob is called the "brother" of his uncle Laban (Gen. 29:15). Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar had no sons, only daughters, who married their "brethren," the sons of Kish. These "brethren" were really their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).
The terms "brothers," "brother," and "sister" did not refer only to close relatives. Sometimes they meant kinsmen (Deut. 23:7; Neh. 5:7; Jer. 34:9), as in the reference to the forty-two "brethren" of King Azariah (2 Kgs. 10:13–14).
In addition, there were no Hebrew or Aramaic word for
cousin, they could use
brother or a circumlocution, such as “the son of my uncle”, but was a clumsy way of talking so the jews often used
brother instead.
Also growing up in Tennessee on the banks of the Tennessee River, we referred to our buddies as
brother or
cuz, slang for cousin. It’s just how us red neck’s talked; so maybe there were “red neck” Jews.
On a last note, the Gospels nor early Christians attest to the notion that Mary bore other Children besides Jesus. The faithful knew, through the witness of Holy Scripture and Tradition, that Jesus was Mary’s only child and remained a lifelong virgin.
An important historical document which supports the teaching of Mary’s perpetual virginity is the
Protoevangelium of James, which was written probably less than sixty years after the conclusion of Mary’s earthly life (around A.D. 120), when memories of her life were still vivid in the minds of many.
Immaculate Conception means that Mary was born without original sin or its stain. That’s what
immaculate means, without stain. Mary was still “saved”, but only in a different way. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.
When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word
kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.
The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.
Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of
charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.
There’s more Old Testament proof that I’m sure we’ll get into, and I’m sure this is enough to get yours and Bob’s blood a boiling.
Purgatory: This was an easy one for me. Since nothing unclean can enter the presence of God (Rev 21:27). Purgatory is a “purification” process that’s applied to those to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven by those that die in God’s grace and friendship, but still remain imperfectly purified. Those that are outside of the grace of God and His friendship are excluded and will suffer the punishment and judgment that God has reserved for the damned for all eternity.
For me this understanding of purgatory was tied together nicely after studying John Wesley’s theology concerning sanctification and justification, basically John’s theology primed me for accepting purgatory.
Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone in my opinion explains this passage.
In regard to the Early Church we see the idea of purgatory in
Acts of Paul and Thecla [AD 160]:
And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous’
And many other Church Fathers…
Blessings
-
