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The United States in prophecy?
- Thread starter Olivencia
- Start date
I've heard folks try to say that it does, but they have to some pretty big theological acrobatics to make it work.
Personally, I don't think so. Not directly.
Personally, I don't think so. Not directly.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
2nd verse, same as the 1st, little shorter, little worse.
No. I can't just say "no" because it won't post that way!
Nope. But that does not mean it isn't there. What symbolsim we have of certain Nations are the main players of the time (such as Russia, China, Arab nations, ect.) but this is because they will instramental in bringing war against Israel. Yet they are part of the whole group. Example.,. the earth divided into 10 regions. Who rules each of these regions? It doesn't say but apparently whoever they are they have no idivual power or sovereignty anymore. They are quite possibly still certain nations (such as the USA) but they have removed their sovereign rights to be much like America is structured now. One country comprised up of multiple states. The states can do a certain amount and are a law unto themselves but only within the allowance of the ruling National govenerment body. There are a few in this group of 10 who seemingly rebel but they are crushed and they become ruled by the others till all governing bodies are eventually removed and the whole becomes ruled by one man.
So even if America is still a nation (which I believe it will be) it will not be a Nation with soveriegn rights anymore but will yield itself and it's rights to the dicates of another governing body. And yet still in the end there will be no individual sovereign nations or even those with ruling powers anymore, but all will be one under one man who opposes God and will both declare and make war against His Christ - to not only loose BIG TIME but to be one of the first two grab and thrown in the Lake of Fire even before anyone else in his army.
Doeroftheword
New Member
I just now heard a interesting sermon about Daniel 7 which you can listen to here http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=41905184438 . I do kinda understand it a lot better now after listening to this and urge you all to listen closely to what is being said
ShotGunWillie
New Member
By name no, but in general yes.
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah [and] against Jerusalem. Zec 12:2 (KJV, emphasis mine)
The United States will take part in the assualt on the Promised Land. They are currently pushing for the Palestinian State, dividing the land that was promised and given by God to the Jew.
The United States will be supportive of more aggressive assaults as move closer to the rapture and tribulation.
thegospelgeek
New Member
Many feel that Ez 39:6 refers to the US. I'm not sure, but could be.
I totally agree with this point! The way our esteemed leader(?) is "leading" us virtually guarantees that we will be a third rate power very soon.
Other possibilities from the mind of JWP:
1 The rapture will remove all the Christians, and the absence of same will wreak havoc on the politics and economy of this nation, knocking it down to the level that the left has desired for decades, OR
2 We will be attacked by terrorists ala' multiple dirty nukes (or whatever) in our major cities yielding the same results as #1 OR
3 We will be slowly (few years at most) choked, smothered, and starved by a growing and intrusive gov't that also will result in the consequences afore mentioned, OR
4 Some combination of the above!!!
As far as Scripture is concerned, IMNSHO, we will be nothing more than some backwater stagnant pond in national power/prestige.
ShotGunWillie
New Member
Something in me says the NAU will be a big player or bigger than what you might think when this starts turning around. The anti-christ will be on Earth before we are called up to be with him. Will he be revealed prior to, don't know, but this man will have to have the endorsement of some pretty heavy hitters and something is going to have to be done to the muslims and Jews as well, but that is another topic.
I say they will be a bigger player along with the EU.
I've come to believe the USA will be like Israel,
Israel/USA were both estabished on the "principles of God", both grew/prospered as until sin "outlawed" the principles of God.
Israel ceased to be a nation, the "Jews" were gone, even the name of the land changed, "Palestine",
With the rapture of the church (spiritual Jews gone) the USA will cease to be the nation it was before, possibly changing it's name within the "United nations" of the world.
De 8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.
Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Israel/USA were both estabished on the "principles of God", both grew/prospered as until sin "outlawed" the principles of God.
Israel ceased to be a nation, the "Jews" were gone, even the name of the land changed, "Palestine",
With the rapture of the church (spiritual Jews gone) the USA will cease to be the nation it was before, possibly changing it's name within the "United nations" of the world.
De 8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.
Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Lysimachus
New Member
Yes, the Bible does talk about the United States.
The United States is represented by the lamb-like beast in Revelation 13:11,12.
It starts out gentle as a lamb, but in the end, it causes all to worship the first beast before it.
It also comes up out of the "earth". This is different from "waters". The "waters" represent the nations in a populated area, known as Europe and the Middle East. The "earth" is a land not very populated, with lots of land. The "earth" is "across the great seas". The United States of America fits this description to an exact T.
From my research, this prophecy fits the United States more than any other.
Blessings!
Lys
The United States is represented by the lamb-like beast in Revelation 13:11,12.
It starts out gentle as a lamb, but in the end, it causes all to worship the first beast before it.
It also comes up out of the "earth". This is different from "waters". The "waters" represent the nations in a populated area, known as Europe and the Middle East. The "earth" is a land not very populated, with lots of land. The "earth" is "across the great seas". The United States of America fits this description to an exact T.
From my research, this prophecy fits the United States more than any other.
Blessings!
Lys
I believe that those eagals wings could be the USA though the prophecy doesn't mention much other than the heart of a man was given it. I'm not 100% sure but I think that a man named schofeild was the one to make this interpretation popular. Alot of people don't like it much because of the accusation made against the RCC. Although I can't think of an enity on earth more evil than the RCC.
I believe the church age is about to meet it's maker. Never before has there ever been so many propheices fulfilled.
MB
ShotGunWillie
New Member
Yes, the Bible does talk about the United States.
The United States is represented by the lamb-like beast in Revelation 13:11,12.
It starts out gentle as a lamb, but in the end, it causes all to worship the first beast before it.
It also comes up out of the "earth". This is different from "waters". The "waters" represent the nations in a populated area, known as Europe and the Middle East. The "earth" is a land not very populated, with lots of land. The "earth" is "across the great seas". The United States of America fits this description to an exact T.
From my research, this prophecy fits the United States more than any other.
Blessings!
Lys
I believe the passage you are referring to isn't speaking of a nation, it is speaking of a person, the son of perdition. Your interpretation is going to confuse a bunch of folks.
No, Lysimachus is correct. Where does it say that Rev 13's earth beast is talking about the son of perdition? Nowhere.
There are about 400 verses in Revelation. Nearly 70% of those verses can be found elsewhere in the Bible. My point? The Bible is its own expositor (Isaiah 28:10-13). So what does the Bible say a "beast" represents in prophecy?
Daniel 7:17, "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."
Daniel 7:23, "Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces."
Even in today's world, nations are described as beasts? The USA is seen as an eagle. Russia is likened unto a bear, and China even carries the image of a dragon.
Likewise, a "woman" in prophecy is defined as a church...
Jeremiah 6:2 "I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman."
The chruch is often called the Bride of Christ. Note, a virgin would therefore be a pure church while a harlot is an apostate church.
In Revelation 13, the beast from the sea is the RCC (note: the son of perdition is the visible head figure of this entity, the Pope.), the beast from the earth is the USA. The USA will become an image of the first beast, the RCC. How? Simple. The RCC is both a nation (beast) and a church (woman).
Revelation 17:3, "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a WOMAN sit upon a scarlet coloured BEAST, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns."
Antichrist is both a political and religious power. At the moment, US Bills are being passed that will virtually remove the ideals set forth by the Second Amendment - the USA will become a church / state entity = image of the vatican / RCC!
Realize that this is the interpretation of prophecy that ALL of the reformers understood. This is known as historicism. To fight back, the RCC commissioned Jesuit scholars to come up with alternative interpretations - to counter-reform! Both preterism and futurism (which involves the understanding of prophecy held by nearly all churches today!) were a result of this.
Also think about this... the USA has the BIGGEST economy of any nation in all of history. It is undoutedly the most powerful and influential power on the face of the planet - and this is not just military power (the US military budget is something like 10 times more than the next 16 countries combined - it is 50% of the world's spending on military!) but also culturally.
Do we really think that God has nothing to say of this power, which first arose in peace and quiet and embodied Christian values, but now speaks as a dragon?
There are about 400 verses in Revelation. Nearly 70% of those verses can be found elsewhere in the Bible. My point? The Bible is its own expositor (Isaiah 28:10-13). So what does the Bible say a "beast" represents in prophecy?
Daniel 7:17, "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."
Daniel 7:23, "Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces."
Even in today's world, nations are described as beasts? The USA is seen as an eagle. Russia is likened unto a bear, and China even carries the image of a dragon.
Likewise, a "woman" in prophecy is defined as a church...
Jeremiah 6:2 "I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman."
The chruch is often called the Bride of Christ. Note, a virgin would therefore be a pure church while a harlot is an apostate church.
In Revelation 13, the beast from the sea is the RCC (note: the son of perdition is the visible head figure of this entity, the Pope.), the beast from the earth is the USA. The USA will become an image of the first beast, the RCC. How? Simple. The RCC is both a nation (beast) and a church (woman).
Revelation 17:3, "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a WOMAN sit upon a scarlet coloured BEAST, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns."
Antichrist is both a political and religious power. At the moment, US Bills are being passed that will virtually remove the ideals set forth by the Second Amendment - the USA will become a church / state entity = image of the vatican / RCC!
Realize that this is the interpretation of prophecy that ALL of the reformers understood. This is known as historicism. To fight back, the RCC commissioned Jesuit scholars to come up with alternative interpretations - to counter-reform! Both preterism and futurism (which involves the understanding of prophecy held by nearly all churches today!) were a result of this.
Also think about this... the USA has the BIGGEST economy of any nation in all of history. It is undoutedly the most powerful and influential power on the face of the planet - and this is not just military power (the US military budget is something like 10 times more than the next 16 countries combined - it is 50% of the world's spending on military!) but also culturally.
Do we really think that God has nothing to say of this power, which first arose in peace and quiet and embodied Christian values, but now speaks as a dragon?
ShotGunWillie
New Member
The Son of Perdition = The Anti-Christ, it has nothing to do with a nation. There are only two references of the "son of perdition" being used, once is in reference to Judas the other to the Anti-Christ.
The pope? Perhaps the false prophet, but unlikely.
There is more than one beast mentioned throughout the bible, some refer to nations or beasts are men.
I think people want to see the US mentioned in scripture so they try to force by coming up with their own theories of what the Word is saying.
If you want to think that, its cool with me, I would just rather not confuse people....
You are right He is a Lamb that speakes as a dragon which proves he is the son of perdition. He gives life to the image of the Beast.
I do not believe the USA is Babylon or the Anti Christ though it's ruler may be.
MB
Lysimachus
New Member
I would have to say that what Jofuss is saying is quite clear to me. No matter how many times I try reading Revelation 13, I see no insinuation of the lamb-like beast being a single person. Where in scripture is a beast likened to a single individual?
Regarding the "Man of Sin", or "Son of Perdition", I myself do not subscribe to the idea that the Antichrist, or any of these phrases is referring only to a single man. Yes, it may have a head individual at the top calling the shots, but the "Man of Sin"/"Son of Perdition"/"Antichrist" encompasses a belief system that defies Christ.
I believe the "man of sin", or "son of perdition" is likened to a system that consists of many people. And here is the proof:
2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
Tell me, is Paul referring to a "single man" here? Of course not. It's a phrase to represent any man of God, though there may be many "men of God".
So, it's the "man of God" verses the "man of sin". Christ vs. Antichrist.
With this, I might close with the thought that any true Baptist will hold fast to the original historicist interpretation that the Papacy is the Antichrist of scripture. This was the second foundational pillar that held Protestantism together. The first pillar being 1. That salvation is through Jesus Christ alone, and not through the works of Romanism, and the second being 2. That the Papacy is the Antichrist of scripture.
Ignore these foundational pillars, and you've been infected by the Jesuit viruses implanted as a result of the Council of Trent in 1545 to organize the counter reformation which commissioned Roman Jesuits such as Francisco Ribera who introduced Futurism, and Luis de Alcazar who introduced Preterism. From there, men such as Darby, Maitland, and Scofield latched onto some of these infected teachings, and infused them throughout the seminaries in North America.
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