The Whole World

[Jarthur001]

1 John 5 (ESV)

18We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

19We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

20And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life..

What do you know and why do you know it?
There is a lot in this passage, but I want to look at one thing 1st..

How many groups of people do you find in verse 19?

 

[LeBuick]

1 John 5 (ESV)



What do you know and why do you know it?
There is a lot in this passage, but I want to look at one thing 1st..

How many groups of people do you find in verse 19?

One, all of mankind.

 

[TCGreek]

1 John 5 (ESV)



What do you know and why do you know it?
There is a lot in this passage, but I want to look at one thing 1st..

How many groups of people do you find in verse 19?

I find two uses of "world" in 1John:

1. The fallen system of mankind because of sin (all occurrences of kosmos outside of 3:17).

2. The physical world (3:17).

 

[Jarthur001]

One, all of mankind.

Maybe you overlooked a few things.

18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

19We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

20And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life..

Ver. 19. We know that we are from God,....

The sons of God, and regenerated by him;

this is known by the Spirit of God, which witnesses to the spirits of the saints that they are the children of God; and by the fruits and effects of regenerating grace, as love to the brethren. This points back to verse one.

1 John 1:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him

This would be group one.
***********************

Ver. 19b....and the whole world lies in wickedness

That is, the men of the world, the greater part of the inhabitants of it, who are as they were when they came into it, not being born of God.

These are addicted to sin and, wickedness. This group minds are set on sin, and give themselves up to it, are immersed in it, and are under the power of it.

This 2nd group is not addressed in verse four...

1 John 1:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world our faith.

This statement in verse 4 belongs to the 1st group.

The other side to verse 4 is that those not born of God, or those taked about in verse 19b...those that lie in wickedness...does not have the victory to overcome the world.
********************

2 groups...

1) we are from God
2) those that lies in wickedness

 

[LeBuick]

Group one is part of your second group.

and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one

The evil influence has power even within the Church. This is why we must stand and fight...

 

[Amy.G]

One, all of mankind.

Huh?

19We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.


We
from God



Whole world
under the power of Satan

2 groups

 

[Amy.G]

Group one is part of your second group.



The evil influence has power even within the Church. This is why we must stand and fight...

Christ has defeated death and Satan.

We are in Christ.

Death and evil have no power over us.

 

[LeBuick]

Christ has defeated death and Satan.

We are in Christ.

Death and evil have no power over us.

You mean the penalty of Sin, correct?

sin's influence is not only direct but indirect. We are still in this world, just not of this world.

 

[Amy.G]

You mean the penalty of Sin, correct?

sin's influence is not only direct but indirect. We are still in this world, just not of this world.

Not just the penalty but also the power of sin. We are not slaves to it now. Even though we still sin, we are no longer slaves that can do nothing but sin.

 

[Allan]

Maybe you overlooked a few things.



Ver. 19. We know that we are from God,....

The sons of God, and regenerated by him;

this is known by the Spirit of God, which witnesses to the spirits of the saints that they are the children of God; and by the fruits and effects of regenerating grace, as love to the brethren. This points back to verse one.


This would be group one.
***********************

Ver. 19b....and the whole world lies in wickedness

That is, the men of the world, the greater part of the inhabitants of it, who are as they were when they came into it, not being born of God.

These are addicted to sin and, wickedness. This group minds are set on sin, and give themselves up to it, are immersed in it, and are under the power of it.

This 2nd group is not addressed in verse four...



This statement in verse 4 belongs to the 1st group.

The other side to verse 4 is that those not born of God, or those taked about in verse 19b...those that lie in wickedness...does not have the victory to overcome the world.
********************

2 groups...

1) we are from God
2) those that lies in wickedness

Exactly !

And as you have shown John in his writting of 1 John (chapter 5) stating and giving a definate defintion of the phrase 'whole world' being all men who lie in wickedness, it establishes what John meant earlier in the epistle 1 John where he declares that Christ is the propitiation for our sins (your first group - saved) but not for ours ONLY, but the sins of the 'WHOLE WORLD' (all those who lie in wickedness - second group).

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Exactly !

And as you have shown John in his writting of 1 John (chapter 5) stating and giving a definate defintion of the phrase 'whole world' being all men who lie in wickedness, it establishes what John meant earlier in the epistle 1 John where he declares that Christ is the propitiation for our sins (your first group - saved) but not for ours ONLY, but the sins of the 'WHOLE WORLD' (all those who lie in wickedness - second group).

Allan,
I posted this to you in the now closed thread, "Who did Jesus Die For?

Originally Posted by Allan
John seems pretty consistant with how he views the phrase 'whole world'. And so it seems that propitiation not for ours only but the sins of the 'whole world' can be replaced with "all the ungodly".

And this quote below is how you explain how Jesus can be the "Propitiation not for ours only, but for the sins of all the ungodly"?

Originally Posted by Allan
It brought the fullness of salvation to those of faith AND condemned those who are not of faith going all the way back to Adam and Eve and all the way through to the last who will believe. Thus scripture states the propitiation of Christ is applied BY/THROUGH faith, even for those awaiting the shedding of His blood to FULLY atone for their sins and wash them away their sins rather than only cover them. It is not automatically given to anyone, otherwise even those who WILL be of faith are already saved and there is no need FOR faith.

Jesus did not actually turn aside God's wrath or take away anyone's sin when He died.
God's wrath was still beating down on all who at that time were still unbelievers, even if their faith was a known future faith, God's wrath would not be turned aside from even them, nor their sins removed, until the moment they profess faith. If Jesus' death did fully atone for and remove the known believers sin at the time of His death, then there is no need for faith according to your statements. It would be seen as being "automatically given" to those who will in the future be saved and thus removing the need for faith.
Also Jesus' death condemned "all the ungodly" who had already perished in their sin prior to His death on the cross and no application of propitiation could be given to them.

Have I accurately stated what you believe?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Matthew 24:14 (HCSB):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.


Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

61AD - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. 140AD - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

197AD - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. 205AD - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. 310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
""The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of CHrist".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.

IMHO Matthew 24:4-14 describes the world from
the Resurrection (c30-33AD) to the current time,
from the current time until the Pretribulation Rapture2
(a Resurrection1 followed shortly by a Rapture1).
The Pretribulation Rapture2 ends the Church Age
(AKA /also known as/ the Time of the Gentiles or
Gentile Age, this present evil age).

This verse 14 keeps being fulfilled -- it is a sign
that the Church Age continues.

 

[Jarthur001]

Exactly !

And as you have shown John in his writting of 1 John (chapter 5) stating and giving a definate defintion of the phrase 'whole world' being all men who lie in wickedness, it establishes what John meant earlier in the epistle 1 John where he declares that Christ is the propitiation for our sins (your first group - saved) but not for ours ONLY, but the sins of the 'WHOLE WORLD' (all those who lie in wickedness - second group).

Hello Allan,

I'll get back to chapter 2 later. I want to be clear here as to your view.

So now "whole world" does not mean all of mankind, but rather you now say that it means all the other guys???????

 

[Allan]

Hello Allan,

I'll get back to chapter 2 later. I want to be clear here as to your view.

So now "whole world" does not mean all of mankind, but rather you now say that it means all the other guys???????

I have never held the view 'whole world' means all of mankind (as in all believers and non-believers), but that it means all the wicked and ungodly.

You have been clear on this for a long time now and was made clear again just recently in another thread, and one just before that one two.

 

[Allan]

Allan,
Jesus did not actually turn aside God's wrath or take away anyone's sin when He died.

I never made these statements or anything of the kind.

God's wrath was still beating down on all who at that time were still unbelievers, even if their faith was a known future faith, God's wrath would not be turned aside from even them, nor their sins removed, until the moment they profess faith. If Jesus' death did fully atone for and remove the known believers sin at the time of His death, then there is no need for faith according to your statements. It would be seen as being "automatically given" to those who will in the future be saved and thus removing the need for faith.
Also Jesus' death condemned "all the ungodly" who had already perished in their sin prior to His death on the cross and no application of propitiation could be given to them.

Have I accurately stated what you believe?

You quoted it via the quote icon, so what is the point in even asking?
You have the basic gist of my argument via my own writting.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

I never made these statements or anything of the kind.

I realize you've never stated it the way I did. I'm asking you if that's what you think 1 John 2:2 means by it's use of "propititation and "whole world".

You quoted it via the quote icon,

What quote are you referring to?


Also I've been looking into your idea that Christ's death served a two-fold purpose.
1) to save those who believe
2) to condemn those who do not believe
with reference to John 3:16-18.

I have yet to see how you can extrapolate this second purpose from that text.
Perhaps a new thread is in order, but I'd like to see this idea discussed in more detail.

 

[Jacinth]

Hi all. I'm new here, so bear with me. :thumbs:

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (KJV)

Does this mean that we all "lie in wickedness" to the extent that sin is in us?